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Why All the Divisions Within Christ's Church?

I didn't suggest that we do not go to scripture for doctrine. But scripture is not the only source of doctrine.
Jesus taught the apostles.
The apostles taught others.
None of them handed out Bibles and said "It's all in there".

Nowhere does Scripture teach scripture alone in any form. There is not a single verse that teaches this.
Scripture teaches that there are other sources of revelation apart from scripture (2Thess 2:15, 1Cor 11:34, 2Tim 2:2).
Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught from Scripture alone.
And I never said we never use the Bible as a single source of information. That is not what sola scriptura means either.
However, every doctrine and every church tradition must be checked as to its truthfulness against what scripture says about it. If the teaching or the tradition does not agree with scripture, scripture has the higher authority----of truth. Not as weidling authority. And it was not all in the Bible during Jesus' time---only the OT was---but we do have it all now. Neither Jesus or the apostles taught anything contrary to the scripture they had, and we are not to teach anything contrary to what they taught. Plus we are neither Jesus or the apostles.
No, authority lies with persons not a book.
Depends on how one is using the word. Scripture rules. Scripture has the last say on what is proper doctrine and acceptable tradition. Of course this is just a rule and is the measurement of truth. People actually do whatever they please.
 
Paul is speaking to believers, Jew and Gentile alike. I see nothing that suggests that he is not speaking from his own Christian experience. Especially since it is something every Christian struggles with.
What about "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Didn't Paul also tell us that?

First Paul states he's talking to those who knew the law. In fact what he's doing in chapter 7 is telling the problems with the law and how he was a miserable wretch when under the law. How he had no power to keep from doing what he didn't want to do. No way does that apply to Paul in his present state. The Law has no dominion over him (as he states in Chapter 6). He goes on in chapter 8 to speak of life and no longer under the law.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Paul was clearly speaking of when he was under the Law. That's what being under the law does...it kills.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
I would need to see scripture verification for that first statement. But even if it is true about the accountability, it would not arrive at the conclusion that sin is not a part of our nature. It would be mercy. We have an abundance of scripture that says we are born in sin. Since a baby cannot sin intentionally, then it must mean that it is in our nature. Psalm 51:5; Eph 2:3; (we are by nature children of wrath); Psalm 58:3. We have three enemies as humans to deal with. They are seen listed together in Eph.2:1-6. The world, our flesh, and the devil.
I submit our nature is HUMAN. Humans are in the flesh. Scripture says we're fearfully and wonderfully made. Created with a conscience, I might add.

Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

David has just been found out about Bathsheba and he is whimpering about what a sinner he is. Going so far as to blame his mother for sinning while conceiving him. In Ephesians the children of wrath is based upon sins committed. He even lists out what's been done.

That verse in Psalm 51 is clearly using poetic license. First it is speaking of the wicked.....going astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
 
First I love this discussion as it has been civil and seems there is an exchange of ideas on a point that has been discussed in theology circles for decades. The problem with any assertions is that it is based on personal bias. So no two people will ever see the issue, especially this issue from the same point. I think the simplest answer to why all the divisions within Christianity and it is overly simplified here is - Humans. As you can see by the answers and discussion here, once a human has become involved everyone stakes out their corner, and then they defend it and believes it is right. Wars have been fought over who has the right way to believe. There are still wars going on but only now it is in media, in forums, and many other nonviolent ways to push an agenda of belief.

I am one that when someone or a church or organization takes a position I feel at conflict with, whether it is a Baptist, a Wesleyan, Catholic, reformed Catholic, or many others, I refer back to the Bible. I try to find the version they typically use to see the words they are basing it on. I want to understand how they came to the viewpoint they have. I ask questions. I do not start with condemning, I start with trying to understand. One of the main tenants of the Christ when he was just plain ole Jesus of Nazareth and teaching others.

I have never understood those that hate on Calvin or Luther or Wesley or Mennon or any of the reformers, nor the protestant hatred of Catholics. We all have the same roots and foundation in our religion, the teachings of Jesus, through his disciples. We as the inheritors of this legacy and this religion have allowed those foundation teaching to be corrupted and misused by those put in charge and allow hatred to be bred into us when Christ preach love and understanding above all else.

I chose love and understanding.
I'm pretty sure there are more like you than you might think. I like everything you have to say, but would point out one thing for you to consider. You speak of the importance of Jesus of Nazareth, and, it really helps put things in perspective when you consider what Jesus said.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
Nowhere does Scripture teach scripture alone in any form. There is not a single verse that teaches this.
Scripture teaches that there are other sources of revelation apart from scripture (2Thess 2:15, 1Cor 11:34, 2Tim 2:2).
Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught from Scripture alone.
Yes not a single verse but all the verses (sola scriptura) called all things written in the law of of our unseen Holy father . Not all thing written in the law of the fathers a legion (3500) and rising what you must call patron saints . a doctrine of men not found in God's book of law But is found in the book (CCC ) of the fathers.

Scripture teaches no such thing .

1 Corinthians does not even hint at tradition and again whose of men or God?

2Thess 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions (of God ) which ye have been taught,(of God) whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 2;2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Many witness heard the father as the father gave words to his apostle Timothy. Apostle sent one not venerable ones . Abel was the first recorded apostle sent with words from our Holy Father, Holy See, our vicar Christ. Also the first recorded martyr .

No man can serve to written masters ( the bible sola scriptura)as coming from one teacher and Lord not seen ..and the law of the fathers written in the CCC. For he will love the one and hate the other or hate the one and love the other .

Its easy to sees as a law of sinful men you must defend the counterfeit as a hierarchy government of men .who, lord it over the understanding of the non venerable . Jesus given words from the father infallibly informs us they have their reward of false pride .Just as our brother in the lord Peter in Mathew 16 when he forbid the chief apostle Jesus as the Son of man from doing the will of the unseen Holy Father ,Holy See, our Vicar Christ.

There is no defense against the armor of God. All things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptural)
 
There is no question that there are many theological divisions among Christians, and that is not even taking into consideration what is often called Christianity but is not, as some or all of the foundational doctrines of Christianity are denied. Christianity, made up of those belonging to Christ and as is defined by Christ Himself and the apostles He appointed to set the foundational (teachings), is a definite. It does not have movable boundaries when it comes to who He is, what He did, how it is applied. This includes the Trinity, virgin birth, sinless life of Jesus, His substitutionary death, His resurrection. His ascension. It includes the justification of the believer through the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus, the impartation of the Holy Spirit for sealing the believer and for sanctifying and training the believer in righteousness, and this for Christ's glory not in order to save ourselves through our own righteousness. It includes the atonement.

The Bible speaks of those who are in Christ as being one body, His body. So why all the divisions we see? And why, at least in the format of forum but I suspect within many churches as well, are these differences in doctrine or theology never actually dealt with but simply argued over?

I have arrived at the suspicion, and it is not based on nothing but rather careful and concerted thought done mostly within the scriptures, that the most damaging thing that has happened in the modern church, is the very thing that stirs up the most anger and hatred from within the body of Christ towards one another, is the abandonment of Reformed theology. What has pretty much been reduced to the term, and that used in a negative way, Calvinism. Specifically the TULIP, even though that is only a small part of reformed theology, but is the premise from which all of scripture is understood and interpreted. Oddly enough, most of the church agrees on the conclusions that this premise leads to, though without this premise, those conclusions are only llp service. And by that I do not mean that a person is believing those truths of salvation in vain or without sincerity of faith. I only mean that if they followed their premise of free will consistnatly, rather than the premise of God's absolute sovereignty and man's fallen sinful nature as taught by the total depravity doctrine,and original sin, they would not arrive at the same place. The idea of man having a will that is willing to serve and love God and God alone, and that our salvation is dependant, not on what Jesus did for us but on what we do, our choice, of whether to accept this or not, completely tears down the premise of the total sovereignty of God. Anyone who has ever read with reverence and understanding Job chapters 38 through 41, ought to give pause when suggesting what God can and cannot do, what He will and will not do. Or ever having it cross their mind that they should reject a doctrine or doctrines that have been a part of Christ's church from its birth. That is, the doctrine of original sin, and mankind's unwillingness to come to Him with any kind of a pure heart, and God being the One who saves and chooses those He saves because He is sovereign in all things. These doctrines were not pulled out of thin air. They came out of the word of God, and they are in almost every confession of faith that came out of the Reformation. There were differences and divisions then too---but they were over minor things that did not pertain to salvation. It is thanks mainly to a man named Charles Finney in the 19th century, that these doctrines began to be overturned, and the gates of the church were torn down and left wide open for every wind of doctrine to march right into the church, so that now even the walls are burned to the ground.

If we begin with the premise that God is truly sovereign at all times and in all things----as the Bible makes clear that He is---we will have an entirely different view of Him and ourselves in relation to and relationship with Him. If we do not start there, and maintain that premise on every page and sentence we read, we will have contradictions in the Bible. If we stay with this premise, over time and with diligence, we can unravel those apparent contradictions, sometimes like the day dawning, and sometimes with the knowledge that it is a paradox or a mystery not yet revealed,or the secret things of God that our finiteness cannot fathom but that faith takes to heart, but that we have no more business probing than we have of going through a strangers personal things. The most common way we have of dealing with apparent contradictions is to pick the one that suits our image of God the best, or requires the least amount of thought, while ignoring whatever contradicts the belief we choose. While also shouting loudly that we are doing no such thing.

So I ask this. Is there anywhere in the Bible where God leaves a single element of His purpose and His plans determinate in the hands of mankind? Does not everything and everywhere always work towards His purposes? Does He not say this Himself? So why, at the most crucial point in His redemptive plan, that final step of a person being saved, or not, does He suddenly step back, out of the picture, and say I love you so much I will leave it up to each person whether or not they are redeemed. Mind you, this would be after He sent His beloved Son, and the Son came in the likeness of us, and sent Him to the cross to His suffering and death, to redeem a people, rescue them from their sin and from death. He then turns the efficacy of Christ's life and death and resurrection and ascension, over to a tiny, fallen, corrupted, creature? Gives the result of this into the hearts of the enemies of the cross? Gives to the rescued the glory due the Rescuer? I think not. May it never be!

And lest the argument come up that God did this because He wanted people who loved Him voluntarily, let's look at that a bit deeper. What we havue are people who come to God for self preservation. Whereas, if we have a people who come to God because He has snatched them out of the kingdom of darkness and brought them into the kingdom of the Son of HIs love, what do we have? We have a people who love the Father and come to Him because He first loved them to such a great degree the He sent HIs Son to die in their place, for their sins, gave them personally to the Son imputing Christ's righteousness to them in place of their filthy rags. And giving them what they need to trust in Christ and Christ alone---the very faith to believe the gospel when they hear it.

There are many other ways in which the abandonment of both original sin and predestination have weakened and change the church and our understanding of scripture that we can explore.
Thank you for the elegant way you spoke about the absolute sovereignty of GOD.

Really needed to be said, Hope many read it.

Blade
 
The abandonment of both those doctrines are a step toward the Truth, not against the truth.

I also don't believe that "self preservation" is why we are drawn to God, nor is it why we believe the Gospel.
NO, those doctrines are a written part of the Bible, God's WORD. Do we just abandon them and hope it is that step toward the truth..Yet, we deny the truth by removing, changing or just down right ignoring what GOD is saying.

Blade
 
NO, those doctrines are a written part of the Bible, God's WORD. Do we just abandon them and hope it is that step toward the truth..Yet, we deny the truth by removing, changing or just down right ignoring what GOD is saying.

Blade
Oh right, and you're the holder of all truth.

You're standing on a lot of verses and ignoring even more. Nothing is being removed. It has always been there, but the Catholic Church introduced these false ideas like original sin, and a lot of people were sucked in.
 
There seems to be two major misconceptions on what the OP is about. But before I get to that, let me point out your statement that I enter with a presupposition of various ideas. It is me and my beliefs that created the thread so naturally my beliefs and ideas are going to be contained within it. It is not a dissertation on the Reformation, or a discussion on the divisions within the Reformation. First misconception. The second misconception is that it about Reformed theology, often denigratorized as Calvinism.

And of course divisions are caused by man's sinful nature. What else? It is man's sinful nature that doesn't like to have boundaries set for him also, and why he tears them down. But Jesus did set boundaries for the doctrines (teachings) of His church. They are contained in the apostolic epistles. Whether we like it or not---and we don't. So we moved and slowly removed the ancient boundaries and have turned Christ's church into "my" church.

The authority of scripture over church tradition is not a presupposition. It is a fact of God.

I made a supposition about what might be a large contributing factor of the doctrinal divisions that today have developed into something that seems to have no bounds. Anything goes. I presented it as a supposition. I am speaking of two particular doctrines---that indeed came into the church as common and solid in the time of the Reformation, that were abandoned as not needed for foundational Christianity. (Protestant doctrine if that makes you feel better.) I am a protestant and my concerns are with the protestant doctrines. I am and was in no way casting aspersions on Catholics, or those who do not believe in predestination. I presented a question. Period. And what has happened so far in this thread pretty much bears out my suspicions, and that is not meant as an insult or accusation of anyone either. At times it becomes difficult to dare to say anything on here as there are always those who rise up in arms.

Those two positions that were laid aside as either not important or untrue beginning really in the mid to late 19th century, are the Sovereignty of God and original sin. I have had to repeat this a few times now to pull the thread back on track! In today's protestant church those two things are so removed from teaching and preaching that Christianity as we find in the apostolic age has flown the coop. Anything goes. There are no boundaries and there is no foundation. The result is chaos and division. Nearly, and maybe, all the very tenants of Christianity, the apostolic teaching, and even the teaching of and about God are discounted as important. The Bible is no longer our guide or sets our limits, this yielding to God. Instead in large part our "doctrines" are born out of feelings and experiences, and an image of God we create that is molded according to how we want God to be and what we feel He should be. Our beliefs are pulled out of thin air with perhaps a reference here or there to scripture or Jesus, irregardless of who one thinks He is or what they think He did or didn't do.

And I have found that anyone who dares to stand unmoving on that solid ground of ancient days and Ancient of Days, here anyway, is quickly ridiculed and assaulted and their beliefs attacked---by Christian and non Christian alike, though not by everyone. Which brings up another supposition? Is that because at all costs, we don't want our idols torn down and be faced with the God who is, rather than the God we are presently comfortable with. Are we afraid we can't love and worship that God. If we had those two foundation stones to stand upon, the sovereignty of God and original sin, this would not be a problem. A God who is sovereign and also good and holy and perfect, is a God who can be trusted, and trusted to keep His people, even if there are things about Him we find difficult to understand or to like because we can't understand them. A sovereign God hears our every word and thought, always has His eye upon us as provider and protector and leader. In original sin and only there, combined with the holiness and power of a sovereign God, can we truly see the desperation of our need and helplessness and hopelessness of ever escaping this condition in which we are bound. And in seeing those two things, is where we see the true magnitude and glory and love of God who saves us, by the Son coming as one of us, to pay for our sins with His perfection and death, that He might rescue us forever.

In truth, my heart weeps over the condition of Christ's church in much the same way as Nehemiah wept over the ruins of Jerusalem.

Many opinions but not a single piece of evidence to support them.
To take but one:
"But Jesus did set boundaries for the doctrines (teachings) of His church. They are contained in the apostolic epistles."
Where is the evidence for that claim?
 
And I never said we never use the Bible as a single source of information. That is not what sola scriptura means either.
However, every doctrine and every church tradition must be checked as to its truthfulness against what scripture says about it. If the teaching or the tradition does not agree with scripture, scripture has the higher authority----of truth. Not as weidling authority. And it was not all in the Bible during Jesus' time---only the OT was---but we do have it all now. Neither Jesus or the apostles taught anything contrary to the scripture they had, and we are not to teach anything contrary to what they taught. Plus we are neither Jesus or the apostles.

No Cathiolic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts Scripture (properly interpreted.)
 
There is no question that there are many theological divisions among Christians, and that is not even taking into consideration what is often called Christianity but is not, as some or all of the foundational doctrines of Christianity are denied. Christianity, made up of those belonging to Christ and as is defined by Christ Himself and the apostles He appointed to set the foundational (teachings), is a definite. It does not have movable boundaries when it comes to who He is, what He did, how it is applied. This includes the Trinity, virgin birth, sinless life of Jesus, His substitutionary death, His resurrection. His ascension. It includes the justification of the believer through the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus, the impartation of the Holy Spirit for sealing the believer and for sanctifying and training the believer in righteousness, and this for Christ's glory not in order to save ourselves through our own righteousness. It includes the atonement.

The Bible speaks of those who are in Christ as being one body, His body. So why all the divisions we see? And why, at least in the format of forum but I suspect within many churches as well, are these differences in doctrine or theology never actually dealt with but simply argued over?

I have arrived at the suspicion, and it is not based on nothing but rather careful and concerted thought done mostly within the scriptures, that the most damaging thing that has happened in the modern church, is the very thing that stirs up the most anger and hatred from within the body of Christ towards one another, is the abandonment of Reformed theology. What has pretty much been reduced to the term, and that used in a negative way, Calvinism. Specifically the TULIP, even though that is only a small part of reformed theology, but is the premise from which all of scripture is understood and interpreted. Oddly enough, most of the church agrees on the conclusions that this premise leads to, though without this premise, those conclusions are only llp service. And by that I do not mean that a person is believing those truths of salvation in vain or without sincerity of faith. I only mean that if they followed their premise of free will consistnatly, rather than the premise of God's absolute sovereignty and man's fallen sinful nature as taught by the total depravity doctrine,and original sin, they would not arrive at the same place. The idea of man having a will that is willing to serve and love God and God alone, and that our salvation is dependant, not on what Jesus did for us but on what we do, our choice, of whether to accept this or not, completely tears down the premise of the total sovereignty of God. Anyone who has ever read with reverence and understanding Job chapters 38 through 41, ought to give pause when suggesting what God can and cannot do, what He will and will not do. Or ever having it cross their mind that they should reject a doctrine or doctrines that have been a part of Christ's church from its birth. That is, the doctrine of original sin, and mankind's unwillingness to come to Him with any kind of a pure heart, and God being the One who saves and chooses those He saves because He is sovereign in all things. These doctrines were not pulled out of thin air. They came out of the word of God, and they are in almost every confession of faith that came out of the Reformation. There were differences and divisions then too---but they were over minor things that did not pertain to salvation. It is thanks mainly to a man named Charles Finney in the 19th century, that these doctrines began to be overturned, and the gates of the church were torn down and left wide open for every wind of doctrine to march right into the church, so that now even the walls are burned to the ground.

If we begin with the premise that God is truly sovereign at all times and in all things----as the Bible makes clear that He is---we will have an entirely different view of Him and ourselves in relation to and relationship with Him. If we do not start there, and maintain that premise on every page and sentence we read, we will have contradictions in the Bible. If we stay with this premise, over time and with diligence, we can unravel those apparent contradictions, sometimes like the day dawning, and sometimes with the knowledge that it is a paradox or a mystery not yet revealed,or the secret things of God that our finiteness cannot fathom but that faith takes to heart, but that we have no more business probing than we have of going through a strangers personal things. The most common way we have of dealing with apparent contradictions is to pick the one that suits our image of God the best, or requires the least amount of thought, while ignoring whatever contradicts the belief we choose. While also shouting loudly that we are doing no such thing.

So I ask this. Is there anywhere in the Bible where God leaves a single element of His purpose and His plans determinate in the hands of mankind? Does not everything and everywhere always work towards His purposes? Does He not say this Himself? So why, at the most crucial point in His redemptive plan, that final step of a person being saved, or not, does He suddenly step back, out of the picture, and say I love you so much I will leave it up to each person whether or not they are redeemed. Mind you, this would be after He sent His beloved Son, and the Son came in the likeness of us, and sent Him to the cross to His suffering and death, to redeem a people, rescue them from their sin and from death. He then turns the efficacy of Christ's life and death and resurrection and ascension, over to a tiny, fallen, corrupted, creature? Gives the result of this into the hearts of the enemies of the cross? Gives to the rescued the glory due the Rescuer? I think not. May it never be!

And lest the argument come up that God did this because He wanted people who loved Him voluntarily, let's look at that a bit deeper. What we have are people who come to God for self preservation. Whereas, if we have a people who come to God because He has snatched them out of the kingdom of darkness and brought them into the kingdom of the Son of HIs love, what do we have? We have a people who love the Father and come to Him because He first loved them to such a great degree the He sent HIs Son to die in their place, for their sins, gave them personally to the Son, imputing Christ's righteousness to them in place of their filthy rags. And giving them what they need to trust in Christ and Christ alone---the very faith to believe the gospel when they hear it.

There are many other ways in which the abandonment of both original sin and predestination have weakened and change the church and our understanding of scripture that we can explore.
Why all the divisions. Because the majority is not "Christ's Church".

Even those looking to divide and not bring together should know their place.
 
Yes not a single verse but all the verses (sola scriptura) called all things written in the law of of our unseen Holy father . Not all thing written in the law of the fathers a legion (3500) and rising what you must call patron saints . a doctrine of men not found in God's book of law But is found in the book (CCC ) of the fathers.

Scripture teaches no such thing .

1 Corinthians does not even hint at tradition and again whose of men or God?
1Cor 11:34 “About the other things I will give instructions when I come.”
Paul gave them addition teaching - orally, not in writing

2Thess 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions (of God ) which ye have been taught,(of God) whether by word, or our epistle.
Yes, Sacred Tradition - given orally not in writing.

2 Timothy 2;2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Yes, Timothy is to teach what he has heard from Paul (orally) and to each others. (orally). Nothing about handing out scripture for them to work out their own doctrines.

John also writes writes “Although I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink; instead I hope to come to you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 1:12).
Oral teaching not written.
 
No Cathiolic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts Scripture (properly interpreted.)
I disagree with that, as I am not Catholic for a reason. You would naturally say what you say because you are a Catholic. Why this has turned into a Catholic/Protestant thread is beyond me. If you insist on keeping it as one rather than making your own for that purpose, then at least tell us, where these Catholic doctrines that you obviously realize are considered contradictions of scripture by protestants, are not properly understood. What are they? What is the "proper understanding" of what scripture is saying and your interpretation of the Catholic understanding?
 
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