On Calvin's doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment

[Bladerunner]

There is no evidence that immortality exists. I do not believe in a immortal afterlife; just a less painful life with God.

To what do you disagree?

The soul based on the greek verb ψυχω to breathe in and out. Yes, don't fear Jesus, fear God who can destroy both breathe and frame in Gehenna.

YLT
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

TR
καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβηθήτε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ

you said;'I do not believe in a immortal afterlife; just a less painful life with God."

Then you believe only the parts you want to believe instead of God's WORD in total.....How do you do it....You got a crystal ball or something telling you just which WORDs of GOD are not really HIS or WORDS of GOD's that can be denied without consequences? I know a lot of people would pay big money for one of them..Have you got another one for sale?

Blade

 

[7thMoon]

you said;'I do not believe in a immortal afterlife; just a less painful life with God."

Then you believe only the parts you want to believe instead of God's WORD in total.....How do you do it....You got a crystal ball or something telling you just which WORDs of GOD are not really HIS or WORDS of GOD's that can be denied without consequences? I know a lot of people would pay big money for one of them..Have you got another one for sale?

Blade

I said that I believe the afterlife to be much less painful. You don't know what a word of God is also.

 

[Studyman]

There is no evidence that immortality exists. I do not believe in a immortal afterlife; just a less painful life with God.

I'm speaking about evidence "In the Holy scriptures". Surely a God with no beginning or no end, can be considered "immortal".

I don't believe "Eternal destruction" means "eternal life", regardless of where it's spent.

 

[Arial]

Doctrines develop by their own trends and evolve by various factors, but ECT is a potpourri derived of various translations/interpretations of just a few passages, mostly metaphor and allegory, while it has been a blight on the good character of 'God' as its professed or believed by some, making 'God' into a sadistic monster or something worse.

It is amazing the way people project their own thought processes, how they would feel about God if He were to be other than the God they can love and worship, onto those who accept, love, and worship God as He is and how He says He is. As He shows Himself to be in scripture, particularly in the OT. If we have to make God in the image of one we can worship, we are not worshiping the God who is.

Love could never impose ECT on any soul,

And we do not get to define what love is according to what it is to us. You seem to think that mankind did nothing wrong and that God is not holy and just. You seem to think justice and love cannot live alongside one another in equal measure within God. Justice is part and parcel of love, and it is God who determines love and who determines justice. Not the creatures He has made.

but the absolute truth of 'God' and his nature is forever absolute, so those who take refuge in him, shall afford themselves heaven.

One cannot take refuge in Him and at the same time live a life of disobedience, metaphoricly spitting in His face. Shaking a fist at Him and saying you will be what I want you to be and let me do as I please. Only His covenant people--the old one and the new one---can take refuge in Him. And disobedience will meet correction and discipline, but they cannot be separated from Christ.

I see Love as all-inclusive and reject a theology that demeans the character of Deity to various anthropomorphic images of man's own making, then assumes that this 'god' does his various impieties and heinous deeds for his own purposes and glory (the deviltry!), and then assumes that any intelligent person ought to accept such beliefs.

More projection. In case you missed it---He is the Potter, we are the clay.

As long as a soul has the ability to repent and choose 'God', he can be saved,

And just exactly are those things we should repent of?

Since all is done within the ultimate context of divine providence and God's omnipresence, there can be no seperation from 'God' in reality,

I am wondering then, why Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden, and God cursed the ground, and set all of mankind to heavy labor?

ECT and eternal hellfire imagery was here before Calvin in various texts, aspects of such a belief/con-cept just got enhanced in various ways within the 'forensics' of his theology, which while assuming to be for God's glory, seems to just justify this god's vengeful wrath, exclusivity and fury, and deems such behavior as 'worthy' of 'God', but I question it all. -

You don't see any reason or justification for God's wrath against mankind? And His wrath is not vengeful----it is just. As you said, but then interpret in a way that is more suitable and acceptable in your view, God is always true to Himself. God is not a big ball of glowing namastes and human love floating around. He is real.

It might be possible if one can explain and lay out all the factors and mechanics of HOW ECT could be maintained, and good luck at that, besides assuming 'God' has pre-planned and pre-disposed already a vast majority of souls to eternal damnation, and only a small handful cherry-picked for 'salvation', all by his own arbitrary and grandiose choosing.

Mankind is self condemned. God meets out His justice. And those He saves are not "cherry picked" that is you projection again. And those He saves is in no way arbitrary for arbitrary is not one of the attributes that exist in God (projection again confining God to the limits of human reason). Neither is it grandiose. God has the right to decide who lives in His house, just as you do.

 

[freelight]

It is amazing the way people project their own thought processes, how they would feel about God if He were to be other than the God they can love and worship, onto those who accept, love, and worship God as He is and how He says He is. As He shows Himself to be in scripture, particularly in the OT. If we have to make God in the image of one we can worship, we are not worshiping the God who is.

I'm projecting just as much as any other person is on what form, nature or image of 'God' is being imagined in our dialogue or debates here, or anywhere for that matter - Infinite Love can do no harm, neither does it impose something as heinous as ECT on souls, while offering these souls no remedy, relief or salvation, but to roast or remain in agony in a lake of fire or some hell-like state forever and ever and ever and ever....TO NO END. Thats insanity, and does not agree with Love's nature or will, it is insane and antithetical to all that is good, loving or just. If you wanna believe that a 'god' would allow that, or enforce that, that is your pleasure to entertain, but its twisted IMO.

You're also assuming that all the descriptions of 'God' in the OT are true and representing the 'Real God', but that is questionable on a variety of levels seeing how YHWH in the OT behaves many times which begs questioning the motives and actions of said 'god'. I'll risk faith in God's infinite love and justice, but I think it includes a greater liberty and inclusion than some religious folks assume, - i've no problems in trusting my sense of 'God' that he gives me by his spirit, while other aspects of man's theology may be less complicated or convoluted. Im happy trusting 'God' as God actually IS, and letting the chips fall where they may. In the meantime, 'God' will continue to lead, guide and reveal his presence and will, as souls are OPEN to follow its guidance. This is Love's way, and its an eternal way.

My former views of ECT are the same, allowing all souls equal opportunity by love to be saved, healed, and restored, allowed to fulfill their true divine potential destiny, as long as they are conscious and able to respond to love's guidance and its supreme will, since 'God' is the sole source and substance of all the soul's good, the all in all of everything. 'God' alone is life, and all the qualities of Spirit belong to those who embrace 'God' and abide in his spirit. A Son of 'God' has all this NOW, he inherits all the Father has.


---------o

 

[Arial]

I'm projecting just as much as any other person is on what form, nature or image of 'God' is being imagined in our dialogue or debates here, or anywhere for that matter - Infinite Love can do no harm, neither does it impose something as heinous as ECT on souls, while offering these souls no remedy, relief or salvation, but to roast or remain in agony in a lake of fire or some hell-like state forever and ever and ever and ever....TO NO END. Thats insanity, and does not agree with Love's nature or will, it is insane and antithetical to all that is good, loving or just. If you wanna believe that a 'god' would allow that, or enforce that, that is your pleasure to entertain, but its twisted IMO.

We have only ourselves to blame.

You're also assuming that all the descriptions of 'God' in the OT are true and representing the 'Real God', but that is questionable on a variety of levels seeing how YHWH in the OT behaves many times which begs questioning the motives and actions of said 'god'

Yes I am and I find it much more reliable than my own imagination. You base your idea of God entirely on what you desire Him to be and so He must be that. You basically base it on nothing. Whereas the Bible proves itself, is it's own authority by the mere fact that it is consistent in what it teaches throughout, even though it was penned by many different people over thousands of years. Plus there is its historical accuracy of those historical events it records, the prophecies given some hundreds even thousands of years before they are fulfilled. None failed, though some haven't yet come, that is obvious, because the time hasn't yet come. Where do you find your ideas of who God is? On your head or someone else's head. News flash: people don't define God. He is who He is.

I'll risk faith in God's infinite love and justice, but I think it includes a greater liberty and inclusion than some religious folks assume, - i've no problems in trusting my sense of 'God' that he gives me by his spirit, while other aspects of man's theology may be less complicated or convoluted.

If I were you I would never again ask for His justice. I would seek His mercy instead. You cannot legitimately lay claim to having the Holy Spirit of God and at the same time deny the validity of scripture. All of it. The Bible is not a smorgasbord that we search to find what tickles our ears or benefits us or sends us soaring into the ether.

Im happy trusting 'God' as God actually IS, and letting the chips fall where they may. In the meantime, 'God' will continue to lead, guide and reveal his presence and will, as souls are OPEN to follow its guidance. This is Love's way, and its an eternal way.

You don't know who God is. You have made up your own god. That should be obvious even to you, as it is based on nothing. And you don't follow His guidance for you reject His word. But I can see where you would have to do that. It doesn't make your beliefs true though. What if----what if you are wrong?

My former views of ECT are the same, allowing all souls equal opportunity by love to be saved, healed, and restored, allowed to fulfill their true divine potential destiny, as long as they are conscious and able to respond to love's guidance and its supreme will, since 'God' is the sole source and substance of all the soul's good, the all in all of everything. 'God' alone is life, and all the qualities of Spirit belong to those who embrace 'God' and abide in his spirit. A Son of 'God' has all this NOW, he inherits all the Father has.

No one can please God without faith in the crucified and risen Christ, who actually met God's justice against sin for those who have this faith, so that they may receive mercy.

 

[freelight]

We have only ourselves to blame.

All we have is our own perception and idea of anything, beyond that reality just 'being' All there is, is Consciousness. People have their own ideas, images and conceptions of 'Deity', just like you, .....no two snowflakes are alike, but there is one substance and LIFE from which all things derive their existence. Call IT 'God' if you like

Yes I am and I find it much more reliable than my own imagination. You base your idea of God entirely on what you desire Him to be and so He must be that. You basically base it on nothing. Whereas the Bible proves itself, is it's own authority by the mere fact that it is consistent in what it teaches throughout, even though it was penned by many different people over thousands of years. Plus there is its historical accuracy of those historical events it records, the prophecies given some hundreds even thousands of years before they are fulfilled. None failed, though some haven't yet come, that is obvious, because the time hasn't yet come. Where do you find your ideas of who God is? On your head or someone else's head. News flash: people don't define God. He is who He is.

I dont limit 'God' to any book or religion. 'God' is infinite. The Bible is not perfect, infallible or innerrant....neither is it a FINAL revelation of 'God'. - religious writings are relative, limited, conditional and at best merely symbolic, being language forms limited to the minds and cultural-context of their writing.

Yes, 'God' is what IS, the Absolute Reality that is always Being,........whose infinity is all-inclusive and transcending. I'm glad to just let 'God' be 'God'....and so it is

If I were you I would never again ask for His justice. I would seek His mercy instead. You cannot legitimately lay claim to having the Holy Spirit of God and at the same time deny the validity of scripture. All of it. The Bible is not a smorgasbord that we search to find what tickles our ears or benefits us or sends us soaring into the ether.

I trust in God and his divine character, that includes the perfect administration of justice and mercy, thru love and wisdom, definitely, since 'God' can only do and will according to his divine nature, his constitution. - I believe the Urantia Book delivers a pretty good representation of God, from a traditional monotheist perspective, yet with additional cosmic insights of expanded revelation at the time of its writing, on the 'Nature of God' -

Paper 2. The Nature of God | Urantia Book Fellowship | eng01

urantiabook.org

We explore this with added commentary in the UB thread here, here , here , here, (all commentary is chronological with discussion of the papers at least the first 12 papers) - justice and mercy are mediated by love always, so that cosmic and universal law is always satisfied by their own dynamics and results of action, but love's will is always being carried out in all situations in the light of free will choices.

The UB also rejects ECT because its soteriology/eschatology is more of a 'conditional immortality' system,.....souls eventually either choose life or death (disintegration)....as the soul that sins shall die. Souls that do not choose life and put on immortality, obviously will not benefit from eternal life, and succumb to mortality, death, decay, disintegration of existence. - this is another subject of course, but important in seeing the context in which I share from a UB perspective here - more traditional evangelicals are finding 'conditional immortality' a more biblical option, or at least feasible within scripture, than the traditional concept of ECT, poor souls stuck in hellfire or some eternal doom forever and ever. - in 'conditional immortality',...souls that wholly reject 'God' and thus life, embracing iniquity fully, are destroyed by their sin,.....not tortured forever like a bad nightmare that never ends.

Otherwise, the pure metaphysics of non-duality and divine science, posits a more universal spiritual concept of existence, because God's omnipresence is infinite and all-encompassing.

You don't know who God is. You have made up your own god. That should be obvious even to you, as it is based on nothing. And you don't follow His guidance for you reject His word. But I can see where you would have to do that. It doesn't make your beliefs true though. What if----what if you are wrong?

'God' is. Some higher civilizations call 'God' the 'ISness'. 'God' is absolute, but being infinite is unknowable in totality, so is ever a divine MYSTERY. - what rays of light (gnosis) we can know are given individually because the spirit of 'God' within and without...is ever radiating.

I think it rather presumptuous to assume I dont know 'God', but it would be more appropriate to say that my perception and knowledge of 'God' is different than yours, rather than assuming mine erroneous or invalid. 'God' is Spirit, Light, Love, Truth (and more of course)......'God' is the One Infnite Absolute Reality, the All That Is, the Only ONE. - back to metaphysics and ontology I'm not responsible to prove 'God', since 'God' already IS all that IS. - so I like to leave 'God' alone - all else is creative fun with language.

Im not claiming to know anything, or to profess anything true, but only what I can intuite, perceive and know by my own being and consciousness, that is all I have,...to know that I AM - this knowing is universal. - Truth is universal.

No one can please God without faith in the crucified and risen Christ, who actually met God's justice against sin for those who have this faith, so that they may receive mercy.

That is one opinion derived only from the NT, and nowhere else,....while a multitude of other religions have their philosophy and symbology in how they relate to the cosmos and the sundries of human experience.

I dont subscribe to the penal substititionary atonement model, neither to the efficacy of blood sacrifice, human or animal,....besides such having some occult meaning or significance whose assumed benefit is only by 'belief' anyways....however that relates.

God is love all by himself, without needed a sacrifice to express or bestow such love,.....love is just love. So penal atonement and related theories as such are pretentious IMO and based on varous presuppositions. Again, love is love, - 'God' saves all who call upon him or turn to him via repentance (changing the mind towards the unity, harmony and perfection of Spirit). - here the truth of New Thought and Divine Science holds IMO....since the divine nature is unchanging, absolute and wholly reliable. - only what is relative or conditional is what changes and is subject to mortality. So I rest upon the fundamentals of what is absolute, God alone.

Various religous beliefs, ideas or theologies may come and go, and my acceptance or rejection of such may change as well as time goes on. They are all subject to change.


------------------o

 

[Arial]

All we have is our own perception and idea of anything, beyond that reality just 'being' All there is, is Consciousness. People have their own ideas, images and conceptions of 'Deity', just like you, .....no two snowflakes are alike, but there is one substance and LIFE from which all things derive their existence. Call IT 'God' if you like



I dont limit 'God' to any book or religion. 'God' is infinite. The Bible is not perfect, infallible or innerrant....neither is it a FINAL revelation of 'God'. - religious writings are relative, limited, conditional and at best merely symbolic, being language forms limited to the minds and cultural-context of their writing.

Yes, 'God' is what IS, the Absolute Reality that is always Being,........whose infinity is all-inclusive and transcending. I'm glad to just let 'God' be 'God'....and so it is




I trust in God and his divine character, that includes the perfect administration of justice and mercy, thru love and wisdom, definitely, since 'God' can only do and will according to his divine nature, his constitution. - I believe the Urantia Book delivers a pretty good representation of God, from a traditional monotheist perspective, yet with additional cosmic insights of expanded revelation at the time of its writing, on the 'Nature of God' -

Paper 2. The Nature of God | Urantia Book Fellowship | eng01

urantiabook.org

We explore this with added commentary in the UB thread here, here , here , here, (all commentary is chronological with discussion of the papers at least the first 12 papers) - justice and mercy are mediated by love always, so that cosmic and universal law is always satisfied by their own dynamics and results of action, but love's will is always being carried out in all situations in the light of free will choices.

The UB also rejects ECT because its soteriology/eschatology is more of a 'conditional immortality' system,.....souls eventually either choose life or death (disintegration)....as the soul that sins shall die. Souls that do not choose life and put on immortality, obviously will not benefit from eternal life, and succumb to mortality, death, decay, disintegration of existence. - this is another subject of course, but important in seeing the context in which I share from a UB perspective here - more traditional evangelicals are finding 'conditional immortality' a more biblical option, or at least feasible within scripture, than the traditional concept of ECT, poor souls stuck in hellfire or some eternal doom forever and ever. - in 'conditional immortality',...souls that wholly reject 'God' and thus life, embracing iniquity fully, are destroyed by their sin,.....not tortured forever like a bad nightmare that never ends.

Otherwise, the pure metaphysics of non-duality and divine science, posits a more universal spiritual concept of existence, because God's omnipresence is infinite and all-encompassing.



'God' is. Some higher civilizations call 'God' the 'ISness'. 'God' is absolute, but being infinite is unknowable in totality, so is ever a divine MYSTERY. - what rays of light (gnosis) we can know are given individually because the spirit of 'God' within and without...is ever radiating.

I think it rather presumptuous to assume I dont know 'God', but it would be more appropriate to say that my perception and knowledge of 'God' is different than yours, rather than assuming mine erroneous or invalid. 'God' is Spirit, Light, Love, Truth (and more of course)......'God' is the One Infnite Absolute Reality, the All That Is, the Only ONE. - back to metaphysics and ontology I'm not responsible to prove 'God', since 'God' already IS all that IS. - so I like to leave 'God' alone - all else is creative fun with language.

Im not claiming to know anything, or to profess anything true, but only what I can intuite, perceive and know by my own being and consciousness, that is all I have,...to know that I AM - this knowing is universal. - Truth is universal.



That is one opinion derived only from the NT, and nowhere else,....while a multitude of other religions have their philosophy and symbology in how they relate to the cosmos and the sundries of human experience.

I dont subscribe to the penal substititionary atonement model, neither to the efficacy of blood sacrifice, human or animal,....besides such having some occult meaning or significance whose assumed benefit is only by 'belief' anyways....however that relates.

God is love all by himself, without needed a sacrifice to express or bestow such love,.....love is just love. So penal atonement and related theories as such are pretentious IMO and based on varous presuppositions. Again, love is love, - 'God' saves all who call upon him or turn to him via repentance (changing the mind towards the unity, harmony and perfection of Spirit). - here the truth of New Thought and Divine Science holds IMO....since the divine nature is unchanging, absolute and wholly reliable. - only what is relative or conditional is what changes and is subject to mortality. So I rest upon the fundamentals of what is absolute, God alone.

Various religous beliefs, ideas or theologies may come and go, and my acceptance or rejection of such may change as well as time goes on. They are all subject to change.


------------------o

Poppycock

 

[freelight]

Poppycock

Nah, just an open and free mind, willing to explore and think for himself - you ought to try it sometime. My former thoughts hold, unless they are expanded or change in any way, degree or dimension,.....as the nature of consciousness is always expanding.

Injoy!


-------------o