On Calvin's doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment

[L.B.]

certainly Paul did not follow Calvin..by about little 1600 years.

Calvin is not a religion.....Religion (any) is the Attempt of Man to cover himself God.

Blade

Hey Blade,
Often a theologian will grasp a way of thinking about God: and suddenly some will say it is a new religious sect!
Calvin was a theological thinker... It was never his intention to turn his arguments into yet another sect...
The world so wants to label people as one denomination or other...
Calvin, I imagine would be horrified if people after him said they are 'Calvinist'.... I dare say most reformists would have seen themselves as Christian, but with differing understandings revealed to them.
We are a broad church... and we have access to so many understandings derived from Scripture and debate, and our relationship directly with God, manifested through His Holy Spirit. It adds to the picture- though some would want to limit that to suit their own needs for control over revelation.
So I am concurring- Calvin is a theologian with a revelation about Scripture... but he is firstly a Christian and he would be horrified if he was defined as Calvinist, and not as a Christian who had a revelation.

 

[meshak]

Hey Blade,
Often a theologian will grasp a way of thinking about God: and suddenly some will say it is a new religious sect!
Calvin was a theological thinker... It was never his intention to turn his arguments into yet another sect...
The world so wants to label people as one denomination or other...
Calvin, I imagine would be horrified if people after him said they are 'Calvinist'.... I dare say most reformists would have seen themselves as Christian, but with differing understandings revealed to them.
We are a broad church... and we have access to so many understandings derived from Scripture and debate, and our relationship directly with God, manifested through His Holy Spirit. It adds to the picture- though some would want to limit that to suit their own needs for control over revelation.
So I am concurring- Calvin is a theologian with a revelation about Scripture... but he is firstly a Christian and he would be horrified if he was defined as Calvinist, and not as a Christian who had a revelation.

Why did you agree with Studyman who disagrees with your view on calvinism?

You do kind of stuff a lot.

 

[Studyman]

Why do you think JW organization is all about business?

What's your evidence?

they don't make any profit.

I didn't say it was all about business, I said it was a business, whose net worth is around 1.5 Billion. I don't believe the Path Jesus walked was a business. You are free to adopt CT Russell as your teacher if you want Meshak. I have the Holy Scriptures, and the Christ which inspired them.

For me, this is enough.

 

[Studyman]

certainly Paul did not follow Calvin..by about little over 1600 years.

Calvin is not a religion.....Religion (any) is the Attempt of Man to cover himself with God.

Blade

Calvinism is.

 

[Mr G Lee]

But Patrick Jane is right, it can be a systematic theology from the Bible. But it stems from Jesus only dying for the elect and not the world.

Dying as sufferings for the elect that he has chosen out of the world .

 

[Arial]

Calvinism is.

No it isn't. It is a theology. And a misnomer as well.

 

[meshak]

I didn't say it was all about business, I said it was a business, whose net worth is around 1.5 Billion. I don't believe the Path Jesus walked was a business. You are free to adopt CT Russell as your teacher if you want Meshak. I have the Holy Scriptures, and the Christ which inspired them.

For me, this is enough.

I don't follow Russell or anyone else as my teacher.

Jesus is my Teacher.

It is hard to believe their net worth is 1.5 billion.

But I do believe he was a faithful servant.

 

[Studyman]

I don't follow Russell or anyone else as my teacher.

Jesus is my Teacher.

It is hard to believe their net worth is 1.5 billion.

But I do believe he was a faithful servant.

He made dozens of Prophesies which never came to pass. There is a simple reason for that, just as there was for Ellen White. They were not speaking for God. They "SAID" they were, but they were not.

I'm OK with that, I have no reason whatsoever to promote or defend one of the many religious businesses of this world. Why would I? I have the Oracles of God in my own home.

 

[meshak]

He made dozens of Prophesies which never came to pass. There is a simple reason for that, just as there was for Ellen White. They were not speaking for God. They "SAID" they were, but they were not.

I'm OK with that, I have no reason whatsoever to promote or defend one of the many religious businesses of this world. Why would I? I have the Oracles of God in my own home.

Did he make a prophecy?

I never follow up on who made the prophecy or not.

But JWs don't promote the sin of worshipping a false god.

And it is much grave sin.

 

[Bladerunner]

Did he make a prophecy?

I never follow up on who made the prophecy or not.

But JWs don't promote the sin of worshipping a false god.

And it is much grave sin.

Oh, they don't worship a false GOD,they just believe they will become GOD themselves on a world of their own with little GOD babies running all around. Their ministry is a CULT.

Blade

 

[shroom]

Oh, they don't worship a false GOD,they just believe they will become GOD themselves on a world of their own with little GOD babies running all around. Their ministry is a CULT.

Blade

Don’t confuse the JWs with the Mormons, Blade.

 

[freelight]

I cannot find any material about how this doctrine was invented during the Reformation.

Fasten your seatbelts

Doctrines develop by their own trends and evolve by various factors, but ECT is a potpourri derived of various translations/interpretations of just a few passages, mostly metaphor and allegory, while it has been a blight on the good character of 'God' as its professed or believed by some, making 'God' into a sadistic monster or something worse.

Love could never impose ECT on any soul, ever.....but each soul suffers according to its own sinful ACTIONS, the consequenes depending on duration and its karmic effects (measure for measure), for that is universal law...not some eternal BBQ pit where souls are forever agonizing TO NO END, as some superstitions assume, and even a few modern writers have fantasized about (besides Dante''s Inferno). - add on various apocalyptic verses and dreadful eschatologies, and you give Hollywood plenty of material, plus theologians and laymen.

In any case,....'God' who is love (we'll believe John for the moment), is all merciful and just, being infinitely GOOD, so a theology of such a Real 'God' would reflect all the qualities and atrributes of said Deity, so all are given equal opportunity of the divine blessing and eternal life, for sons of 'God' inherit all 'God' has, and ultimately shall put on immortality. All who choose and will to do God's will, have access to the TREE of LIFE, and all the good gifts of Spirit. One can entertain any number of soteriological or eschatological contexts, while beliefs and opinions are relative and subject to change, but the absolute truth of 'God' and his nature is forever absolute, so those who take refuge in him, shall afford themselves heaven. The kingdom of heaven is NOW, by its absolute reality existing, both within and without, if 'God' is truly omnipresent.

I see Love as all-inclusive and reject a theology that demeans the character of Deity to various anthropomorphic images of man's own making, then assumes that this 'god' does his various impieties and heinous deeds for his own purposes and glory (the deviltry!), and then assumes that any intelligent person ought to accept such beliefs.

"God is not mocked, what is sown, is what shall be reaped".....again, the universal law is law,.....cause/effect, seedtime/harvest, so 'God' could not impose a punishment or torment on any soul except what the law allows in those conditions appropriate to their government and activity. The karmic law is fair and equally compensatory, while all is mediated by divine grace and providence....so that ultimately triumphs. As long as a soul has the ability to repent and choose 'God', he can be saved, unless some power or principle prevents such (which details can be debated). Since all is done within the ultimate context of divine providence and God's omnipresence, there can be no seperation from 'God' in reality, except what is misperceived and clouded by man's own ignorance or fear, while love is the healer and savior.

ECT and eternal hellfire imagery was here before Calvin in various texts, aspects of such a belief/con-cept just got enhanced in various ways within the 'forensics' of his theology, which while assuming to be for God's glory, seems to just justify this god's vengeful wrath, exclusivity and fury, and deems such behavior as 'worthy' of 'God', but I question it all. - many points of TULIP are debatable.

It might be possible if one can explain and lay out all the factors and mechanics of HOW ECT could be maintained, and good luck at that, besides assuming 'God' has pre-planned and pre-disposed already a vast majority of souls to eternal damnation, and only a small handful cherry-picked for 'salvation', all by his own arbitrary and grandiose choosing. - I think theres much more involved in the bigger picture here.


------------------o