Jesus talks about the coming destruction of Jerusalem

[TrevorL]

Greetings L.B.,

You know the best way I see it now is through the God authored eyes of the writer in context to the historical situation of its time. Writing of current events and the Roman empire, and how it creates cautionary advice not to be swayed by its influences.... and looking ahead. Through a rearticulation in our time it carries the same message for us too... and that same end to history (worldly history)... of its time and our time.

I am not sure how you would expound each detail on that basis. I consider Revelation 2-3 to be actual Congregations in the then Asia Minor, with Ephesus as the centre possibly because of the history with Paul being there for 2 years and others including John. Each Congregation had its own circumstances and problems. We can learn much from each of these, both on a personal level and our own meetings, Churches or Congregations. I like the word "Ekklesia" and its meaning, and most of the meetings in my fellowship use the word "Ecclesia" (which is not an English word but we have "ecclesiastical") to describe our meetings.

When we come to the Seals, Trumpets and Vials, I consider that the Seals were judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire until it was replaced by the Apostate Christian Church under Constantine, AD 96-312. The Trumpets are from this period after AD 312 to the French Revolution AD 1789 and has both Western and Eastern Roman aspects, and the Vials from the French Revolution till the return of Jesus sometime in the near future. As stated before I consider that we are in the 6th Vial, and the three major sections of the 6th Vial are Central Europe=Beast, Rome=False Prophet and Constantinople=Dragon. I consider that Russia will sooner or later take Istanbul, so that the events concerning Armageddon may proceed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[L.B.]

Greetings L.B.,

I am not sure how you would expound each detail on that basis. I consider Revelation 2-3 to be actual Congregations in the then Asia Minor, with Ephesus as the centre possibly because of the history with Paul being there for 2 years and others including John. Each Congregation had its own circumstances and problems. We can learn much from each of these, both on a personal level and our own meetings, Churches or Congregations. I like the word "Ekklesia" and its meaning, and most of the meetings in my fellowship use the word "Ecclesia" (which is not an English word but we have "ecclesiastical") to describe our meetings.

When we come to the Seals, Trumpets and Vials, I consider that the Seals were judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire until it was replaced by the Apostate Christian Church under Constantine, AD 96-312. The Trumpets are from this period after AD 312 to the French Revolution AD 1789 and has both Western and Eastern Roman aspects, and the Vials from the French Revolution till the return of Jesus sometime in the near future. As stated before I consider that we are in the 6th Vial, and the three major sections of the 6th Vial are Central Europe=Beast, Rome=False Prophet and Constantinople=Dragon. I consider that Russia will sooner or later take Istanbul, so that the events concerning Armageddon may proceed.

Kind regards
Trevor

The king of the North ideology? That is Russia,,,, Some say Iran,,,
I have always had difficulty with such ruminations, preferring instead to focus on just helping out and sharing my faith.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again L.B.,

The king of the North ideology? That is Russia,,,, Some say Iran,,,

Ezekiel 38 has Persia accompanying the King of the North Rosh. Our fellowship has held this view for 170 years and seems very relevant today with Russia on the move.
"The future movements of Russia are notable signs of the times, because they are predicted in the Scriptures of truth. The Russian Autocracy in its plenitude, and on the verge of dissolution, is the Image of Nebuchadnezzar standing upon the Mountains of Israel, ready to be smitten by the Stone. When Russia makes its grand move for the building-up of its Image-empire then let the reader know that the end of all things, as at present constituted, is at hand. The long-expected, but stealthy, advent of the King of Israel will be on the eve of becoming a fact; and salvation will be to those who not only looked for it, but have trimmed their lamps by believing the gospel of the kingdom unto the obedience of faith, and the perfection thereof in “fruits meet for repentance”.
John Thomas 1850, Elpis Israel: an exposition of the Kingdom of God

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[L.B.]

Greetings again L.B.,

Ezekiel 38 has Persia accompanying the King of the North Rosh. Our fellowship has held this view for 170 years and seems very relevant today with Russia on the move.
"The future movements of Russia are notable signs of the times, because they are predicted in the Scriptures of truth. The Russian Autocracy in its plenitude, and on the verge of dissolution, is the Image of Nebuchadnezzar standing upon the Mountains of Israel, ready to be smitten by the Stone. When Russia makes its grand move for the building-up of its Image-empire then let the reader know that the end of all things, as at present constituted, is at hand. The long-expected, but stealthy, advent of the King of Israel will be on the eve of becoming a fact; and salvation will be to those who not only looked for it, but have trimmed their lamps by believing the gospel of the kingdom unto the obedience of faith, and the perfection thereof in “fruits meet for repentance”.
John Thomas 1850, Elpis Israel: an exposition of the Kingdom of God

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks for that. Sounds like colonialism and its expansion is the central drive for end to history. What woes it unleashes!
I am comforted by the fact that 'all nations' will bow: end to history and its discourse and discord.

 

[MatthewG]

Greetings again MatthewG,

I have reread all the posts and it seems I have misunderstood you, and that you were only talking about AD 70. If this is the case I apologise and I will try to be more careful in the future. Nevertheless I am not sure what was the purpose of the thread and OP.

Have you checked to what view of the Book of Revelation he subscribes. There are the view that this is already fulfilled (in AD 70?), and the futuristic view (all yet to be fulfilled) and the continuous historic view (the seals, trumpets and vials are successive portions of history). I subscribe to the continuous historic view and I believe that we are in the period of the 6th Vial, near the return of Jesus. I suggest that it is necessary to have a good understanding of the OT prophecies to understand the Book of Revelation properly. You seem to differ with my understanding of the OT prophecies, so I assume you will differ on the Book of Revelation. We have been studying the Book of Revelation in our Senior Sunday School over a number of years and we are up to Revelation 14. Our oldest member was 105 and was attentive, but he is now 106 and feeling his age and only comes to the Memorial Meeting and still has hits wits about him. I have been encouraged that many portions of this difficult prophecy have "clicked" into place as we carefully considered this.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh that is cool. I would probably differ with the elder. The last two churches I visited were sharing revelation.

I’m only highly interested in fulfilment in the first century, and which would make for true liberty for all in the totality of the victory of Jesus @TrevorL, nothing more than this intrigues me and gives me great hope of the future kingdom in the heavenly.

Where those who love God end up indwelling with Him in the kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, and it leaves those who do not want nothing to do with him outside of that kingdom, which would mean work for us to be able to do if God allows us to go out and help others.

I don’t wish for everything to cease of having people come to Jesus even after this life. This the biggest picture of what I deem as a true hope (in faith hoping for things unseen) for any person who accepts the totality of the victory of Jesus friend. (We are called to share our hope and this is my personal set heart on the matter as a whole).

Revelation is given in 22 chapters. Not just 20 and 21.

Thank you for taking time to reread what was posted that is commendable.

 

[MatthewG]

TrevorL,

An interesting passage to ask your 105 year friend
if you ever see him again is, what does he think about 1000 years being with the Lord is like a day, and a day like 1000 years.

I was at the Bible study the church I visited and shared that I believe revelation has been completed and that the devil had been done defeated and this woman was like you believe that ? With all the evil in the world?

What she maybe doesn’t understand is that we ourselves now today are the ones who cause the evil. Though many like to attribute it to a now dead figure named Satan, that was once an Angel and had fallen due to his (own free will of choosing even in the heavenly realm) desire of his own way and not God.

I am not opposed of some nation coming to attack America or the understanding that wars still happen today, the main battle is with the spiritual dark forces of this world.

(We interact with the spirits that come mess with our heart), Spirit of greed, spirit of lust, spirit of hate, these are the dark worldly spirits that can reside in us, what about demons? I would say not like was when Satan was roaring around like a lion back in that day when his time had became shortened.

Not to give credit to just those spirits we fight, we make the choice to indulge further with them, which can lead to a callous heart and no need for God, though we can even hear about the light some turn toward God, some choose darkness.

John 3:16-23?

Only solution to have these removed from us? Allowing God to write on the mind and hearts of an individual seeking and following Christ Jesus, abiding in Him while in this life now today as Jesus by the spirit of Christ can hold these dark spiritual forces back, that plague the soul (mind/will/emotion).

Thank you again for your consideration and hearing me out to each of you whom have read and kept up with this “debate” - discussion.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again L.B. and MatthewG,

Thanks for that. Sounds like colonialism and its expansion is the central drive for end to history. What woes it unleashes!
I am comforted by the fact that 'all nations' will bow: end to history and its discourse and discord.

Yes, the individuals from all the nations that survive Armageddon and also the transition period judgements will submit to Christ when he returns. My impression of the Baptists is that they do not have a united view of what happens when Jesus returns. Their focus is on going to heaven when they die. Some deny a literal Kingdom for the 1000 years, and some deny the conversion of a significant remnant of the nation of Israel to become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God. A significant number believe that the earth will be burnt or destroyed. Perhaps some of the Anabaptists had a more focussed view, but this did not carry over to the Baptists, or not to a significant number of them. The Baptists are more like the Catholics and most Protestants on the subject of the Kingdom of God. I have a copy of most of the Baptist Confessions of Faith and I cannot remember any clear unified statement on the Kingdom of God. I doubt that many Baptists give serious consideration to some of my favourite Kingdom passages such as Acts 3:19-21, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44.

An interesting passage to ask your 105 year friend if you ever see him again is, what does he think about 1000 years being with the Lord is like a day, and a day like 1000 years.

He is now 106 and I see him every Sunday Morning Memorial Service. Both he and his 80 year old son who conducts the Senior Sunday School class believe in a literal 1000 years based upon Revelation 20:4,6. I think your view is called Preterism, and this is the view of the Calvinists and Presbyterians. I have never examined this view, but I am sure it conflicts strongly with what I believe about the coming Kingdom of God on this earth.

I have returned from our Wednesday night Bible Class and his son spoke on Isaiah 55, an excellent chapter and I especially like Isaiah 55:1-3 and Isaiah 55:8-11. I operate the audio and video, and many members, some old, some living at a distance, and some for other reasons, stream the class at home. We can download the talk as mp3 or mp4, and my wife listens to a mp3 version when I prepare a weekly CD and she plays this and other talks and meetings on her stereo.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[MatthewG]

Just desire to share one more time

On Fulfilled Eschatology: When Jesus talks in Matthew 24: There is Joshepus, Cornelius Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Suetonius

Are 4 sources that confirm everything that Jesus had said as having had happened. It is difficult to take the time to study these things.

God bless.

 

[Mattathias]

Oh you believe in an actual psychical kingdom.

I don’t believe that.

I don’t see any way prophecy about the messianic kingdom can be brought to fruition apart from the establishment of an actual physical kingdom on the earth when the Messiah returns.

The second coming hasn’t happened yet. The devil hasn’t been put away. He is still the god of this world. The nations have not yet become the kingdom of God.