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Godly Character - What is it?

SteVen

Well-known member
In response to this great question on the Godly character - off the cuff topic. - Post #22
What does "godly" even mean?
The rest of post #22.
The Hebrew word used in the Bible is "Hasid", and if you've seen the Hasidic movement in Judaism, it involves strict Torah observance and being set apart from the world (including their fellow Jews).

The word used in the Greek is "Eusebos", and it just means "pious".

I'm not sure piety is something I aspire to.
This was a good, "Hey, wait a minute..." moment on the other topic. What seemed like a reasonable question suddenly became suspect. As it should. And a biblical inquiry led to a disappointing conclusion. Piety? Is that it?

It seemed that generosity, faithfulness, self-control, "goodness > knowledge > self-control >perseverance > godliness > mutual affection > love", mercy and compassion; were godly character qualities. ???

But are they really?

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The series I'm watching on the history of philosophy happens to be dealing with the issue of virtue, extensively discussed by Aristotle. The speaker this morning made the point that if someone under hypnotic suggestion rescued a drowning person, this would not be virtuous. Virtuous conduct requires both an act that is virtuous according to some standard and intention and knowledge on the part of the actor that he is acting virtuously rather than non-virtuously.

Which still begs the question, what is "virtue" - little different from the question of what is "godly." This is an extremely deep philosophical question that is not going to be convincingly answered here. Philosophers point out that we can't define a term simply by listing characteristics that fall within it - "loving." "kind," "generous," etc., is not a definition of virtue or godliness. This headache-inducing paper ("What is virtue?") is just an example of how complex the philosophical discussions can become: https://philarchive.org/archive/JEFWIV.

As I asked early-on, can an atheist act in a godly manner? Can a Hindu, a Scientologist? Is the concept of godliness applicable only in the Christian context? Can only Christians be "godly"?

This is the nonsense peddled by Frank ("I Don't Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist") Turek - only Christians can have legitimate notions of morality because only they have the real God as their objective standard. Atheists must "steal from God" in order to assert moral claims at all, because without God all they really have is human opinion. I addressed this nonsense in one my blog entries or long posts at CB.

The fact that torturing babies is wrong is not a matter of opinion, as if two atheists who disagree on the matter stand on equal footing. It is the consensus of the vast majority of humans and is codified in numerous laws. Someone who thinks otherwise is a nutcase. (Except in Ancient Rome and lots of other cultures where allowing female babies to die of exposure was not uncommon! I doubt they would have characterized it a virtuous or godly, but it also wasn't condemned.)

"Godly," IMO, is simply "virtuous" with a religious spin. An atheist would balk at the term, a Christian or Hindu wouldn't. If a Christian says a Hindu acted in a godly manner, the Christian is typically going to be saying this with reference to the Christian God even though the Hindu wouldn't define godliness in this way.

Basically, then, I think virtuousness is a near-universal concept that, as Justice Stewart said about obscenity, most people viscerally know when they see it. "Godly" may be just a synonym for virtuous ... or it may mean virtuous in the context of some theistic religion ... or, to some Christians, it may mean something that only Christians are capable of because only they can please God.

The godly qualities you list are certainly godly to a Christian or most theistic persons, because their notions of morality are defined by reference to their God and his standards. To an atheist, they are simply virtuous. For most Christians, I think the Golden Rule pretty well summarizes godliness; if some ascetic sect wants to adopt extreme piety as its definition, that has nothing to do with me.
 
As I asked early-on, can an atheist act in a godly manner? Can a Hindu, a Scientologist? Is the concept of godliness applicable only in the Christian context? Can only Christians be "godly"?
Everyone has a God-given human conscience. Thus is our source of what is right and wrong.
"... sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending..." - Romans 2:15 NIV

The godly qualities you list are certainly godly to a Christian or most theistic persons, because their notions of morality are defined by reference to their God and his standards. To an atheist, they are simply virtuous. For most Christians, I think the Golden Rule pretty well summarizes godliness; if some ascetic sect wants to adopt extreme piety as its definition, that has nothing to do with me.
I think Jesus called us to an even higher standard than worldly virtue.

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I looked at some online Christian discussions of godliness, and they almost all discuss it in terms of characteristics - i.e., they don't really define it.

This discussion does make the attempt, and it's really pretty good: https://bible.org/article/what-godliness.

He makes the point that what distinguishes godliness from mere virtuousness is motivation - godliness is motivated by a devotion to God and a desire to please God. (This, of course, may eliminate atheists but not other species of theists, unless one takes the position that only Christians have the real God and thus only they can be godly.)
 
Everyone has a God-given human conscience. Thus is our source of what is right and wrong.
That really doesn't work, except in the broadest sense. The ancient Romans (and many others) thought exposing unwanted female babies to die of exposure to the elements was "right." Native Americans thought leaving useless old people to die of exposure was likewise "right." My God-given conscience tells me the OT system of animal sacrifice and the notion of billions of people being sent to fiery torment are unworthy of any God I can possibly imagine. Hmmm, eh?

I think conscience gives us perhaps some broad sense that there is such a thing as "right" and such a thing as "wrong," but it doesn't really deal with specifics. History shows that human notions of right and wrong have varied widely and dramatically.
I think Jesus called us to an even higher standard than worldly virtue.
Only in the sense I suggest in the post immediately above - a motivation of devotion and desire to please God. Other than that, a life of worldy virtue would be indistinguishable from a godly Christian walk. Almost all religions and even secular creeds have some version of the Golden Rule; it's only the half about loving God that is not worldly.
 
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He makes the point that what distinguishes godliness from mere virtuousness is motivation - godliness is motivated by a devotion to God and a desire to please God.
Or, could we say, "Love for God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength" in action?
 
(This, of course, may eliminate atheists but not other species of theists, unless one takes the position that only Christians have the real God and thus only they can be godly.)
I hope "godliness" doesn't include things like flying planes into buildings or detonating a semtex vest in the middle of a crowd of infidels out of devotion to one's god.
 
SteVen said:
Everyone has a God-given human conscience. Thus is our source of what is right and wrong. I think Jesus called us to an even higher standard than worldly virtue.
That really doesn't work, except in the broadest sense. The ancient Romans (and many others) thought exposing unwanted female babies to die of exposure to the elements was "right." Native Americans thought leaving useless old people to die of exposure was likewise "right." My God-given conscience tells me the OT system of animal sacrifice and the notion of billions of people being sent to fiery torment are unworthy of any God I can possibly imagine. Hmmm, eh?

I think conscience gives us perhaps some broad sense that there is such a thing as "right" and such a thing as "wrong," but it doesn't really deal with specifics. History shows that human notions of right and wrong have varied widely and dramatically.

Only in the sense I suggest in the post immediately above - a motivation of devotion and desire to please God. Other than that, a life of worldy virtue would be indistinguishable from a godly Christian walk. Almost all religions and even secular creeds have some version of the Golden Rule; it's only the half about loving God that is not worldly.
My understanding of the Golden Rule is: Do to others what you would have them do to you.
Perhaps you are thinking of the greatest commandment(s)? Love God; Love your neighbor. ???

From Jesus we get: walk the second mile; turn the other cheek; if someone sues you for your shirt, hand over your coat as well; anger is the same as murder; lust is the same as adultery; don't take credit for your giving; love your enemies. And so on.

]
 
SteVen said:
And a biblical inquiry led to a disappointing conclusion. Piety? Is that it?
Why should it be disappointing? Isn't devotion to God what distinguishes "godliness" from common human virtue?
That's fine. But is piety a godly character trait? Is God pious?
And if He is, is that his only character trait?

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That's fine. But is piety a godly character trait? Is God pious?
Hmm. Was Jesus pious? One could argue He got into trouble with the Guardians of Piety of His time by doing things like healing people on God's Sabbath. How disrespectful to God! But that's just a "godliness" implementation detail.
 
The article O'Darby posted highlighted "devotion to God" as the essential characteristic of "godliness", which (as I alluded to in post #7) aligns with the most important commandment: Loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength". Love in action, not just feeling and not just intellectual love, though that's important too.

Hmm. What do you get a God who already has everything?

What's are appropriate ways to show God you love Him?
 
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