Eternal Punishment - Bible Study

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #24

So in conclusion of our look at afterlife punishment that was apparent during the days and age of Christ through to the year 70AD, the overall message and their application to the people of that day and age goes something like this:

Because of Adam and his sin, al the world fell into a fallen state, a state where they were physically and spiritually separated from the direct presence of God.

All people prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, when they experienced physical death, went to sheol, a covered place, a place still separated from God, which consisted of either a prison (the dark place of torments) or to paddies (called Abraham's bosom).

When Jesus came, as the Second Adam, His life, death, and resurrection reconciled those who were in the paradise part of Sheol to God and He took them with Him into the presence of God after His Resurrection.


Those who were in the prison part of Sheol remained there.

Jesus promised to return to earth within a generation (forty years) and to bring with Him judgment and reward.

He came as promised.

With His return, everything in scripture was materially fulfilled.


According to the contents of Revelation (whichh was written to the Seven Churches of Asia Minor then), this would include the fact that hell gave up its dead, and all the inhabitants stood before the Great White Throne judgment and were judged.


Those whose names were not found int he Lamb's Book of Life were sent to the Lake of Fire, which was in the presence of the Lamb and his angels, and experienced what is called, "the second death."


This second death was not eternal but was for an age (aion) or period of time. What was dying or experiencing the second death in the Lake of fire? all things that were not of God - they were being purged or rubbed away in the fire and brimstone of God's light and love.

All these things, detailed in Revelation and in other parts of scripture wrapped up that biblical age where Jesus has had the total victory over all things and we are now left with the last, or third scenario of after-life punishment.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post : #25

The Third Scenario of After-life Punishment

Post 70 AD to the present

As a means to truly understand the Third Scenario which applies to us today living in the modern age of Christianity, let's begin by asking ourselves:

"Is God's will always done?"

Scripture says that it is. WE might then ask ourselves:

"Is God's will good or is it evil?"


If He is a good God whom we can trust, then we would have to say that His will is always good. Always good.


Then we might ask, "Well then, what is His will relative to the salvation of the human race?"

That is an interesting question because the answer comes out in different ways depending on an individuals religious perspective.




To ardent five-point Calvinsits, His will translates to an almost wholesale indifference to certain individuals that He has literally created for hell and is wholly devoted to others whom He has chosen for eternal life.



Part of the problem is that bible does seem to support both . . .

I would suggest we answer this query, with with a number of passage employed by both sides of the coin. Let's consider some passages. What does it mean when we read in:


2 Peter 3:9: " The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness: but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that nay should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

- Isaiah 45:23-24 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."

- 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation of our sins: and not only ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

- 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have al men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

- 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.


Check out Isaiah 46:8-11 where God says : "Remember this, and show yourselves men: bring it against to mind, O yet transgressors. Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is non else; I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: calling a ravenous bird from he east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yet, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have proposed it, I will also do it."

Next, Let's go back and ask ourselves, "Is God just?"


As we admitted, if He is to be considered a God that can be trusted, He must be completely just. And then, if or since He is just, we ask the fourth question "Is there a hell and/or place of punishment?" For this ewho reject His will in this day and age?



As a means to answer this, we ought to go back to the Book of Hebrews. Here in chapter 13:1, in comparing Jesus to angels, the writer asks:


"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thing enemies thy footstool?"

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #26

Read that passage carefully again. Have you ever considered what it is telling us? First of all, has God ever said to any of the angels to sit at his right hand? No, never. The writer of Hebrews took this passage from Psalms 110:1 which was a Psalm that is repeatedly quoted in the New Testament and refers to the Messiah. When Jesus was on earth He applied this passage to Himself (in Matthew 22:43,44). Peter applied it to Him too (in Acts 2:34,35).

Notice something here. The passage says that Christ will sit "at the right hand of that Father UNTIL . . . until He makes all His enemies his footstool. "What does this mean? Have you ever considered the fact that Christ will be at the side of the Father UNTIL A certain period of time?

A footstool is what we put under our feet when we sit on a chair, and so the phrase here pictures that His enemies are entirely subdued. Entirely . . . subdued. Could it mean, when "Every one bows and every tongue confessed?" Perhaps.



I am going to lead you into some amazing imagery now - one I challenge all of you to prayerfully consider and studiously pursue. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul touches on the topic of "all things being subjected" with a little more depth and says at verse 23. Read these verses carefully speaking of the resurrection Paul says:

23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Chris's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hate put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hate put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(LISTEN)
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself before subject unto him that put al things under him that God may be all in all.

We know that from scripture that hell is a biblical reality. We know people went there and we know it is described as a place of this was all covered in the previous sections.

But we also know from scripture (1 Timothy 2:4), that speaking of GOd, Paul said

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."



We know from scripture that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, and we know from scripture that God does some amazing things to bring about as many as possible to saving truths.



Finally, we know that God elected the nation of Israel, as a people, to do certain tasks - to bring forth the Law, the scripture, and the Messiah - among other things.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #27

And when they (the nation of Israel) were "in the game" they kind of thought of themselves as "all that," that everything sort of began and ended with them," right?


They were reticent and surprised that the "great unwashed" Gentiles would be accepted by God, right? And they resisted the notion. They still resist the notion today. But contrary to their ideas, the Lord did open the gates to all, didn't He? It was at the conversion of Cornelius. And from this Christ has gathered unto himself a bride (or a church_ that the gates of hell would not prevail against and this bride was elected to do certain things to help bring about God's ultimate will too.


Is it possible, that just as the Jews though that they were "all that" and that no others were allowed into the Kingdom that we, as the body of Christ, could be making the same mistake relative to the rest of the world today?



Is it possible that those who goto the lake of fire, if the Lake is still in operation of purging souls, that once they have bowed and confessed that Jesus is Lord (by the Holy Spirit), will too, come forth to fruition God's will that all men be saved and that none would be perish?



Why does Jesus remain at the right hand of God only until all His enemies have been placed under His feet? Who are His enemies? And where are they located? Are they in hell? On Earth? In the Lake of Fire? And exactly how does God make them His footstool? Are they in a big pile of souls serving as a pillow under his feet? What does this look like? What does God look like in this picture? What is the imagery suggesting?

We then wondered out-loud "to what purpose" or "what is the end result" is His enemies being placed under his feet?

 

[MatthewG]

(From PDF | The Christian Anarchist Crookbook | cult) expressed permission from the author was given to be able to share for the edification of learning and benefit of others.


continued from post number #28

Echoing these sentiments Romans 9:21 says "Hate not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

From these passages (and many many more) we KNOW God does "whatever He pleases" . . . "that his counsels will stand" . . . that " with Him all things are possible . . . "that we are predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will" . . . and "that He even created all things for His own pleasure ??? "

When we read in proverbs that "He made all things for Himself, even the wicked,", and Isaiah it says "He created evil",and in Romans 9 it says "He has the power to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor" (one for heaven and one for hell what are we to think!!!???



It certainly sounds like God is a Sovereign - even a despotic - God . . . at least that is the way Calvinism presents Him. But then we read passages likes James 1:3, which say " Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of GOd; For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

Does this speak to the free will of man? In the face of a sovereign God does man have free will?


Consider 1 John 1:5 which says: "This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, "That God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all."

There are so many passages that speak of God as loving, more merciful than a cold glass of water in a hot desert, more long-suffering than a thousand Jobs, and more forgiving than any human parent. How are we to understand all of this? Would a loving, good, kind, merciful, God even create human beings, whom He loves for an eternal hell?

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #29

Go back with me, then - way back to before the world or the heavens were. To the "before all things." To the place where all we can say is "God." The first and the last. Did God know all things about all things prior to creating them?


Absolutely.


In the face of this, we have to agree that He is . . .

- Omniscient (All Knowing).

-Omnipotent (All-powerful).

-Omnipresent (everywhere present).


Being all of these things, being all things, being the first and the last, knowing the beginning to the end, did this God WHOM JOHN DESCRIBES AS LOVE know all things about each and everyone of us . . . Prior to creating us?


Of course. He had to.

Not only because scripture says He did but because if He didn't he could be surprised by our acts, and if surprised then not in the control of them - which is counter to scripture. This leaves us facing a tremendous biblical conundrum. Enormous and one where the answers provided have plagued me since I could think. We are told His is light. We are told He is love. But we are also told He is in control and He does what He will. In response to this, men have come along and made propositions.


Today we have men who are claiming something called Open Theism which suggests that God doesn not know everything, He is only fully prepared to reposed to what comes up.


Intellectually it is a reasonable response but the problem with it is it counters biblical representations of Him. I reject Open Theism as a non-biblical creation of Man. Then there is Calvin.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #30

He (Calvin) took these concepts and explained them in the form of what has come to be summarized by others in the acronym TULIP.

First, God, knowing all things, unconditionally created and elected some of us, before the foundation of the world, for eternal life and others for eternal hell. Born of flesh and due to the Fall all of us are totally depraved (having no ability to choose God). Then God unconditionally elects (saves, regenerates) those whom He will "to life," then Jesus came and suffered only for the sins of those whom God elected to save (limited atonement). And because God always hets His way those whom He has elected cannot refuse His call (irresistible grace) and then finally, once He calls or elects a person they will persevere - end to the end / Once saved always saved because God doesn't give them a choice . . . His will be done!


For instance:

Isaiah 55:8-11 comes to mind where He says "For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


And then knowing GOd is love and good how are we to understand Isaiah 46:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11: Calling a rev nous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have proposed it, and I will also do it.




What does it mean in the face of all this information we read in 2 Peter 3:9 that

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that nay should perish, but all should come to repentance."



Or what does 1 Timothy 2:3-4 mean which says:

"For it is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge the truth?"

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #31



Somehow, we have to come to terms with ALL of this information -- not just some of it and NOT embracing what generations of Men and Women have taught and believed if it is NOT right nor biblically sound.


So go with me again back to the beginning - prior to where God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is.


If (or since) God knew He was going to create beings that would become kindling for hell, burning forever and ever and ever in real flames and created them anyway, calling it, His Good Pleasure, we have a serious problem with other passages that call Him love, and good, and merciful, and Holy.


Calvinism, has provided the word with a myopic and therefore limited view of God - emphasizing His sovereignty while either ignoring or redefining what love is. On the other hand, Arminianism, a response to Calvinism, refutes God's Sovereignty and places salvation in the hands of a man who is responsible for freely choosing all things and then being responsible for keep his salvation thereafter.


Is there a reasonable, biblical reposes that offers us a solution to these seemingly contradictory issues and if there is, what does it ultimately reveal to us? I would strongly suggest there is an alternative view - neither Calvinisitic nor Arminianist - that is wholly biblically.

Let's say this from the start - we want nothing to do with the philosophies of Man. We do not want to tickle ears or please men instead of honoring God. We want to teach what is biblical and refuse that which is not. the Bible must be taken as a whole and as a whole, we are faced with some paradoxical issues.


Nevertheless, let us also warn ourselves . . . what the explantation will ultimately reveal or suggest is going to be considered by heretical by most.


May God and His Word enable you to decide for yourselves. So here we go.


First of all, we must admit that God is certainly righteous sovereign and in total and complete control over things in and through His Righteous ways. Can or would real agape love control the way we define control or the way the Calvinist defines control. I would suggest not.

Control, as we see and define it, is diabolical in most applications. Love is liberating and free and never controlling. How then is God (who IS love - pure love, all love, the very definition of love) completely but righteously Sovereign?


By his foreknowledge.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #32

He controls by foreknowledge, not by force. We get a picture of this in the story of Joesph when he was sold into Egypt by his brothers.

After going through all sorts of hell, he became a mighty prince overseeing the distribution of food. When the brothers who sold him into Egypt years early came to him in search of food, he revealed himself. Of course, they felt horrible and frightened for having sold him but Jospeh said in Genesis 50:20

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God amenity unto good, to bring to pass, as this day, to save many people alive."


How did a good and loving GOd, in light of the free will choices He knew human would take before creating them, still create them, knowing some would burn in forever in hell? Additionally, how is He able to have His will done in the face of such free-will choices?

Foreknowledge friends, foreknowledge.


His omniscient foreknowledge existing in the glory of pure love allows for human beings and angels and saints and demons to freely choose while at the same time giving him total and ultimate control over all things and for His pleasure.


We'll get more into what His good will and loving pleasure is next week.


Speaking of His foreknowledge God said through Isaiah 42:9


"Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them"

Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standers for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.


Speaking to King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel said:

Daniel 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and taketh know to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

Speaking of the day when heaven and earth will pass away, Jesus said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

That's foreknowledge. In describing himself, Peter said that he was 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #34

Even when it came to suffering and death of His own Son, we know it did NOT occur by the indiscriminate actions of the Jews, or the Romans, or even of Satan Himself, but by and through the foreknowledge of God. Did God force Satan or Jews or Romans to do what they did? Not in the least. They chose. But God, knowing all things, allowed them to do what they chose to do to bring about His sovereign will.

In Acts 2:23 Peter is speaking to a group of Jews on the day of Pentecost and says to them:

"Him (meaning Jesus) being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

When Jesus was taken, by the Jews was there any surprise to God? Not at all. Again listen to what Peter said:

"Jesus was . . . delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God to them, where they took Him and with wicked hands crucified and slayed Him."

So, again, let's go back. Ask yourselves,


In the beginning did God know Adam and Eve would sin?


Absolutely. NO surprises, right? Did Satan get them to sin? Sure. He tempted them. Did God create Satan? Yes. In this way did God for them to fall? No. Did Adam and Eve have the free will to choose evil? You bet.


As a result, scripture says that Jesus was slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world. Stay with me now. We know from scripture that God is good, light, love. He desires a good and expected end, not an evil one. We know that out of His good pleasure (and out of His loving good pleasure because God is LOVE) that He created all things, knowing beforehand how all things would freely live, and walk and be.


Not forcing us to be, but freely allowed us to be.


Prior to creating all thing with a complete foreknowledge of them would a loving God desire or will that only some would be saved or all?

Again, we know His love, and mercy, and forgiving, and long-suffering, so PRIOR to creating all things, having completed foreknowledge of all things from beginning to the end, would it be His desires that only some of His creations are redeemed or that all of them are? We know from scripture He is righteously sovereign and HE will have His way. But we also know He is all about freedom so He doesn't have His desire met by and through force, He has it by and through working in and around the free choices of Man - which He foresaw form the beginning.

Got all that?

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #34

AS a means to help round out the idea that God has done a number of things to bring about His ultimate will in the existence of free-will Man, let's talk about the very biblical concept of first-fruits.

The word used for first-fruits in the Greek is (aparchn) and it generally applies to the first-fruits of a harvest - or the that which is first collected and consecrated to God as an offering of gratitude. The idea is when the blessing of God is poured out we respond by taking the first part of it, in recognition of His love and Mercy, and give it to Him. Built within the concept is an order or rank.

Additionally, first-fruits also applies to the best of the whole harvest. So let's say you have a grove of apple tress and you want to give the first-fruits to God.


This does NOT mean the very first apples to come to the grove are God's. In Fact, we learn from Leviticus 19:23-25 that when it came to tree first-fruits the Children of Israel were to wait for four cycles of the harvests before either offering first fruits or harvesting them for themselves. So the order and rank part applies to the first acceptable harvest as a whole and the best of the harvest.



Numbers 18:12 says it well:

"All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the first-fruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee."

When it comes to humans, the first-fruits of the womb, however, is always the firstborn sons, which is naturally a picture of our Lord. The purpose and symbolism are manifest even in our day and age. The person to be served first is typically someone of the highest honor.

Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honor the LORD with thy substance, and with the first-fruits of all thine increase."

It goes without saying that the first-fruits, as we've defined them, were very important to GOd. Ezekiel 48:14 says


"And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, or alienate the first-fruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD"

So, and in accordance with God and His Sovereign ways and perfect foreknowledge, the idea of first-fruits - picturing His Only Begotten Son - was initiated from the beginning. Remember, first fruits include the concept of the best, the first, and the rank among others what are to come. Did you hear me? First-fruits include the notions of the best of a crop, the first out of a crop, and a rank (meaning there are other ranks coming behind the first and best.)


When God created everything in the Garden of Eden it was good. Adam and Eve were the first-fruits of all humanity. They were first, they were the best (God created them, right) and they were first in rank. God gave them a choice - to love Him and therefore obey Him or to choose their own will and way. Did God know what they do? Certainly. Which is why scripture says that His Son was slain before the foundations of the World. Did others follow in after the first and best called Adam and Eve? Certainly. Even all the way down to each of us today.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #35

With the first-fruits of the Human race failing to love and choose God, God elected a nation above all other nations.


Romans 11:16, speaking of the Nation of Israel and likening them to a tree God created and elected for specific purposes, Paul wrote to Gentile believers in Rome:

"For if the first-fruit be holy, the lamb is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches."



See, the first-fruit nation, like the first-fruit couple, failed to live the law and choose God. Now listen - the sis key -


Just as more individuals came after the first-fruit couple of Adam and Eve, filling the earth, so did other nations follow in after the first fruit nation fails dto choose God and ultimately rejected the Messiah.


Listen - ALL OTHER NATIONS right?


God has elected (based on His foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve and the Nation of Israel would choose to do) to use them so He would achieve His good pleasure and will, not because He respected them anymore but because of His foreknowledge of what they would do.

Then we know that God sent His Only Begotten Son, right? Who was the first-fruits of God (not the Father) and of Mary and the only one to do His will? In Many ways, Jesus was the first and only of the Church.


First and only born of a virgin.

First and only without sin.

First and only to come down from above.

First and only to obey the Law.

And having been the best, the first, and the first of an order of humanity, he became the first-fruits in overcoming, the grave by overcoming sin and death. Listen as 1 Corinthians 15:20 says it "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firs-tfurits of them that slept."


Because of Him, all mankind (every rank ) will be resurrected or as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:23 "but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."


From His ascension on, the Church - His Church comprised of individual believers, has become the first-fruits of believers.

Romans 8:23 call us, the first-fruits of the Spirit.

Of the first, of a rank, of therefore, the best of all.

First-fruits play such a role in God and His achieving His own pleasure and will that when a person became a belier in a certain geographical area, they were known as the first-fruits of that area. In Romans 16:5, Paul is giving greetings and says "Likewise greek the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the First-fruits of Achaia" unto Christ."

Here is the point, first-fruits in no way suggests that there is no fruit coming after. It merely signifes the first of the best, the first in rank and the first among many.

Adam and Eve were followed by more people.


That Nation of Israel, was followed by more nations.


Jesus, the first resurrected, was and will be followed by more.