Eternal Punishment - Bible Study

[MatthewG]

Within Christianity, there are several scenarios or perspectives from where "after-life punishment" must be considered.

- First, from the Old Testament perspective.

- Second, from the New Testament to 70AD perspective, and

- Third, after 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem

-

In order to grasp the third scenario (which applies to us in our day), the first and second must be understood. Let's look at each of them respectively.

The First Scenario of Afterlife-Punishment

• From everything the Old Testament seems to suggest, the afterlife destination for every departed soul was sheol, known as "the covered place."
• Sheol (which was later translated hell by the King James translators) consisted of a dark holding cell (so to speak) which was also known as a prison and a place likened unto a beautiful place of rest, called paradise.
• While the two different names tend to describe very different environments, we must note that they were both part, or under the roof, of the covered place. In other words, sheol (the covered place) had two compartments - prison and paradise - but both places were separated from the presence of God.
• Based on the parabolic teachings of Jesus there was an impassable chasm or gulf between prison and paradise (also called Abraham's bosom) which was separated them from each other.
• It is of note that all Old Testament Characters - from Cain to Abraham, and from Moses to Isaiah - went to Sheol when they died. Some (the faithless) went to prison and others (the faithful went to paradise) But all remained separated from God until Christ's Antoine work.

 

[MatthewG]

The Second Scenario of After-life Punishment

From the Gospels to 70AD

This scenario is what most Christians today read about in the Bible and believe is the destination for all who have not received Jesus as Lord and Savior now - that there is "eternal suffering" waiting them in endless and literal flames of hell. At first glance, especially in King James, the New Testament seems to support this idea. We will spend our time here illustrating that this view is at best misleading, and at worst, completely wrong.

• Whether hell or lake of fire, the Bible describes the reactions people have to them as painful. "Weeping, gnashing of teeth, torments, and tormented in flames."
• The physical descriptions include:
• "Darkness, out darkness, chains of darkness, and the blackness of darkness" and then ever paradoxically, "hell fire, a furnace of fire, everlasting fire, fire that shall not be quenched, damnation, (a place where_ "the wrath of God abides on them", "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, from the glory of His power, "the perdition of ungodly men," "torments ascending up forever and ever, no rest day or night," "everlasting contempt, and "a lake of fire."
• Those who are said to go there are described as:
• "them that work iniquity," (listen) "the children of the Kingdom (Matthew 8:12), people who say, "thou fool" are in danger of it, "all things that offend," "those on the left hand," "the goats," those whose feet or hands offend," Jesus described one inhabitant only saying he was a "rich man who lived sumptuously everyday," "Those who have done evil," "raging waves," "wandering stars," "of the beast," and regarding the Lake of Fire, Revelation 21:8 says these are they who will have their part in it . . . ready?

• "The fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars.
• These are not a place anyone anytime would want to step foot it.
• Taking all of this into account, we hav ethos eww believe hell and the lake of of fire consists of literal flames being applied to the actual flesh of a resident forever and ever.
• Any deviation from this interpretation is considered heretical.
• And while I do NOT down place the torments of after-life punishments experienced in hell and/or the Lake of Fire, I am personally unconvinced that these interpretations and applications hold water - especially in the afterlife of people today.

We will spend the rest of this segment explaining why. Let's begin with just a minor example observed from scripture.

• When Jesus had a change to tell a story about hell, in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, He was the Rich man (while described as awfully thirsty) carrying on a rather intelligent conversation with those the Paradise side of hell. I would think if his flesh was literally on fire (with literal flames) no such conversation would be possible.
• We might wonder why Jesus didn't say "and Lazarus look down from Abrahams bosom and saw the Rich man on fire, and screaming in unconscionable pain?:
• We have to be careful not to manically apply literalism to places where God is speaking in concepts. Admittedly, sometimes it's hard tot tell which is which.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #2.

Now, one thing almost all of us do - partially because it is convenient - is to refer to hell as the catchphrase for where everyone has gone (or will go) who has not gone to heaven.

In light of scripture, this practice not only adds to the confusion of the topic but is wrong.

Again going back the Old Testament we have the Hebrew word Sheol.

And really this place ought to be referred to as the realm of the unknown. The Hebrews translated Sheol as the grave, as a pit, and a place (listen) for both the evil AND the good. In essence, Sheol is the covered holding tank for souls prior to Christ ascending.

It was comprised of prison and paradise.

The Old Testament translators frequently called it hell but remember, it was the holding place for all disembodied spirits. In the New Testament, the word finds its equivalent in the Greek word Hades. Again, and unfortunately, it is in the English that hades is translated to hell (as in the burning place).

We read in Revelation 20:14 that the keys to Hades and Hades itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire so we can see that it is different from the Lake of Fire . . . that hell is NOT the lake of fire.

Got that?

Another term used for hell is the Greek word Tartarus, and it is only used once (in 2 Peter 2:4). It is best-translated pit of gloom, a pit of darkness and is considered by some to be lower parts of Hades - the Prison part. Prior to Christ's Victory, those in Paradise and those in Prison of Sheol or Hades waited.

Christ took paradise with Him to heaven but the prison part remained as the hold tank (so the speak) for the faithless.

Gehenna is another word translated by Kings James as hell. It was actually a real place - a trash heap in the southeast of Jerusalem - where fires burned the bodies of criminals and the remains of dead animals. It was formerly a place where human sacrifices took place, offered to the pagan god Molech so it had a VERY bad association with the Jews and Jesus used it to describe prison part of Sheol, Hades, Tartarus.

Here many people believe that this describes the ultimate end of people who reject Christ. But is a term used symbolically.

Even James the apostles used the term to describe the human tongue - so this is NOT an allusion to the Lake of Fire spoken of in Revelation.

In other words, hell and the Lake of fire (with all of its inherent descriptions) are two different places. Get this right and you will be well ahead of the game in terms of understanding.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #3

If we turn to Revelation Chapter 20:13 we read that at the time of the Great White Throne judgment:

- "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

The best definition of eternal punishment is found in the next few verses of Revelation 20 where it reads:

- "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the life of fire."

So if we really want to argue where unbelievers went after life in Jesus day, we would say they first went to hell (the dark, unwelcoming place) and then to the lake of fire when Jesus returned.

Again they are NOT one in the same.

Now, scripture tells us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and His angels. Jesus tells us so in Matthew 25:41, saying:

- "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting prepared of the devil and his angels."

Take note, it was NOT prepared for Man.

Revelation 20:7 and 10 tell us that after Christ's return SAtan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire so if we considered the contents in "Eschatology" (for more see: PDF | The Christian Anarchist Crookbook | cult ), I think we are mistaken to believe he is roaming free today.

So, let me briefly summarize. I think we could all agree that when scripture speaks of Hades, Gehnna, Tartarus, Sheol it is where all unbelievers in the New Testament times were immediately upon death); that this Is a dark and dreaded place of of torment but it is NOT the place of fire and it will give up its dead to be judged later. Then, what we are really talking about when we are speaking on the eternality of suffering in flames is the place scripture calls the Lake of Fire.

Accordingly . . .

• Hell is not the Lake of Fire.
• Hell does not have flames but is dark and tormenting.
• Hell gives up its dead.
• The Lake of Fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.
• In the New TEstament Times the Lake of Fire was a future experience for some.
• And that the Lake of Fire is only described in Revelation chapter 19-21.

Next post: #10

 

[shroom]

Here many people believe that this describes the ultimate end of people who reject Christ.

That's because the Bible SAYS the unsaved will be thrown into the lake of fire.

But is a term used symbolically.

How so, Matthew?

In other words, hell and the Lake of fire (with all of its inherent descriptions) are two different places. Get this right and you will be well ahead of the game in terms of understanding.

Or, you will be well on your way to thinking that everyone is eventually going to be saved, something the Bible does not teach or support.

 

[shroom]

So if we really want to argue where unbelievers went after life in Jesus day, we would say they first went to hell (the dark, unwelcoming place) and then to the lake of fire when Jesus returned.

Both the return of Jesus Christ and the white throne judgment are still future.

 

[MatthewG]

Shroom, I have no real comment other than you believe Jesus is still to come and I believe he already has.

I will not take time to argue or be combative, because of what you believe.

So please - Refrain if you can from commenting towards me. Thank you, @shroom.

 

[shroom]

Sheol is the state of death, Matthew. The grave. Nobody is alive when they are dead. There is no "paradise" in death. Luke 16:19ff is a parable.

If the coming rapture and resurrections do not happen, everyone who has died is gone forever.

But thank God they will happen.

 

[shroom]

Shroom, I have no real comment other than you believe Jesus is still to come and I believe he already has.

He obviously hasn't. Look around you. Watch the news. The world is a train wreck, and getting worse. Rapes, murders, disease, famine, devilish weather events, and much more. When Christ returns and sets up his kingdom those things will cease.

I will not take time to argue or be combative, because of what you believe.

That's your choice.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #4

So what is this Lake of Fire? Revelation describes it in one sentence: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



Everyone of us experiences the first death. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says it - "For as in Adam all die,"

But not everyone will experience the second death. Who experiences this second death? what is it and is it eternal?

Revelation tells us plainly who will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:15 says, speaking of those people in that day and age:

- "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (And we know that this is considered the second death).

• Let's pause here and gather up our thoughts in summary. Since hell will give up its dead, we cannot say (and be correct) that hell is eternal.
• No matter how tormenting and dark the holding tank may be, it will end, and all those in it will be brought forth the great white throne and will be judged. This has occurred at the end of the age.
• If their names were NOT found written in the Lambs Book of Life, they were to be cast into the Lake of Fire which was not created for them! It was created for Satan and his angels. Therefore, is the Lake of Fire eternal? We will see.

To the next post: #12

 

[shroom]

Continued from post #4

So what is this Lake of Fire? Revelation describes it in one sentence: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



Everyone of us experiences the first death. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says it - "For as in Adam all die,"

But not everyone will experience the second death. Who experiences this second death? what is it and is it eternal?

Revelation tells us plainly who will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:15 says, speaking of those people in that day and age:

- "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (And we know that this is considered the second death).

• Let's pause here and gather up our thoughts in summary. Since hell will give up its dead, we cannot say (and be correct) that hell is eternal.
• No matter how tormenting and dark the holding tank may be, it will end, and all those in it will be brought forth the great white throne and will be judged. This has occurred at the end of the age.
• If their names were NOT found written in the Lambs Book of Life, they were to be cast into the Lake of Fire which was not created for them! It was created for Satan and his angels. Therefore, is the Lake of Fire eternal? We will see.

SMH

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #10

Reading the King James (and probably your NIV's and ESV's) we are presented with English words that tend to say in absolute terms, yes, the Lake of Fire suffering is eternal, everlasting, endless, etc. etc. After all, it is called the second death right?

(By the way, have you ever considered the fact that while all human beings die and are spiritually dead because of Adam we are all still existing after experiences these deaths? Weird huh?) Anyway. Let's take an example from the King James. Matthew 25:41 Jesus describes "the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever," and Revelation 20:10 says, "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Such passages lead us to believe that the punishment is unending or forever. If how the King James Translators translated this passage then the idea would be sound. But here's the deal: Where we have the word eternal or everlasting in the passages founded in the King James and other translations, other Bible Translations, (like "Youngs LITERAL translations", or "Weymouth's New Testament" or Rotherham's Emphasized Bible", or the "Concordant New Testament") say something a bit different. They say "age-abiding" torments.


As an example, where the King James says in Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

These other translations read:

"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,', but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

OR

"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

"And These shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Why the difference?


It all comes down to the Greek noun "Aion" and the adjective, "Aionious." In the King James, which takes this Greek word and translates it, "Forever and ever," other MORE literal translations of the Greek to the English would translate it, "unto the ages of ages."

To the next post: #13

--- just sharing a song may not be everyones taste:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWrC7fG2jug