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Biblical proof that there is no angels

Mr E said:
That's the point I've been trying to make with @Mattathias -- there is a reason that good folks equate Yahweh and the messiah-spirit that descended and became flesh in the man Jesus. Yes, Yahweh is the first and foremost elohim. SDA believers and JW's alike equate this figure to the archangel Michael-- and consider him an elohim son of God-- the only begotten spirit son who was breathed into mankind in the beginning. That's exactly how Genesis two describes it.

Genesis 1 has elohim-- PLURAL creating the world, and Genesis 2 says specifically that one of these-- the Chief elohim called Yahweh is the one who first created mankind. I'm not making it up-- I'm pointing to what the text actually says.
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Here he is.


Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
— Ephesians 4:13-14
 
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?”

(Job 38:4)

God. Elohim. Singular. Yahweh.

“as the morning stars and all the angels shouted for joy?”

(Job 38:7)
 
Mattathias said:
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?”

(Job 38:4)

God. Elohim. Singular. Yahweh.

“as the morning stars and all the angels shouted for joy?”

(Job 38:7)
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Nope--not going to let that slip in. The Hebrew for elohim is plural. This is the second time you've tried to insist otherwise. You are wrong-- Until you move past this mental block, you'll stay stuck where you are.

Job doesn't contradict the Genesis 1 account where elohim (plural) create the world. And Yahweh was indeed one of those present-- the leader among the elohim who created the world. (Gen 2)

In Job, Yahweh is speaking to Job-- pointing out that he was present, while the inference (from all the questioning) was that Job, was not. It is made clear that there were other sons of God present however. Indisputable.

If you are looking for singular examples-- look in Job 40-- there, it's a different word form used, which is singular rather than the plural form I've mentioned. In Job 40:2 as Yahweh begins questioning Job, he calls himself the Almighty-- all powerful (as compared to the others)-- it's a claim of rank, or order of magnitude--- Yahweh is Chief among the council of Gods. He's indentifying himself this way and telling Job-- Let the person who accuses this one, particular God (eloha) answer to him.

Yahweh even describes what he did in the works (process) of creation telling us that the first creature he made was a behemoth. Job 40:19 Maybe it was some sort of dinosaur... but Yahweh made it before he made man forming both in the same manner.

But the best evidence highlighting the plurality of elohim is right there in Job 1:6 with a heavenly scene.
 
Mr E said:
Nope--not going to let that slip in. The Hebrew for elohim is plural.
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Anyone and everyone who has ever studied Hebrew learns very early on that there are words in Hebrew which are always plural in form which can be either singular or plural in meaning. Elohim is one such word.

Menahem Mansoor refers to it as the “dual number” in his textbook, Biblical Hebrew Step-by-Step.

Elohim is always singular in meaning when used to describe the one true God / elohim.


Mr E said:
This is the second time you've tried to insist otherwise. You are wrong-- Until you move past this mental block, you'll stay stuck where you are.

Job doesn't contradict the Genesis 1 account where elohim (plural) create the world. And Yahweh was indeed one of those present-- the leader among the elohim who created the world. (Gen 2)

In Job, Yahweh is speaking to Job-- pointing out that he was present, while the inference (from all the questioning) was that Job, was not. It is made clear that there were other sons of God present however. Indisputable.

If you are looking for singular examples-- look in Job 40-- there, it's a different word form used, which is singular rather than the plural form I've mentioned. In Job 40:2 as Yahweh begins questioning Job, he calls himself the Almighty-- all powerful (as compared to the others)-- it's a claim of rank, or order of magnitude--- Yahweh is Chief among the council of Gods. He's indentifying himself this way and telling Job-- Let the person who accuses this one, particular God (eloha) answer to him.

Yahweh even describes what he did in the works (process) of creation telling us that the first creature he made was a behemoth. Job 40:19 Maybe it was some sort of dinosaur... but Yahweh made it before he made man forming both in the same manner.

But the best evidence highlighting the plurality of elohim is right there in Job 1:6 with a heavenly scene.
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Mattathias said:
Anyone and everyone who has ever studied Hebrew learns very early on that there are words in Hebrew which are always plural in form which can be either singular or plural in meaning. Elohim is one such word.

Menahem Mansoor refers to it as the “dual number” in his textbook, Biblical Hebrew Step-by-Step.

Elohim is always singular in meaning when used to describe the one true God / elohim.
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That's just not accurate. Elohim -Strong's H430 is plural. When intended to be singular a different form- eloha (H433) is used.
 
Mr E said:
That's just not accurate.
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It’s a lexical fact that it is accurate. You can prove it for yourself even without consulting a Lexicon.

Elohim is always plural in form. Always. No exceptions.

It is translated singular in meaning or plural in meaning, depending on context. When the context is the one true elohim, it is singular in meaning. Always. No exceptions.

When the text is speaking about a single elohim - Dagon, for example - it is translated singular. Dagon is the god (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning) of the Philistines, not the gods (elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) of the Philistines.

God is the creator.


Mr E said:
. Elohim -Strong's H430 is plural.
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That’s right. Elohim is always plural in form.

Mr E said:
When intended to be singular a different form- eloha (H433) is used.
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That’s wrong.

“In the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

In the beginning God (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning) created the heavens and the earth.

Not,

In the beginning gods (elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) created the heavens and the earth.
 
Mr E said:
Correct. And done.

Then you go on to contradict yourself.
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Speak with someone else who also knows Hebrew and you’ll be told that I haven’t contradicted myself.

If you’re going to insist against the language that elohim is always plural in meaning then it’s fair and reasonable for your readers to insist that you translate it that way - something which no Bible translation has ever done.
 
Mattathias said:
Speak with someone else who also knows Hebrew and you’ll be told that I haven’t contradicted myself.

If you’re going to insist against the language that elohim is always plural in meaning then it’s fair and reasonable for your readers to insist that you translate it that way - something which no Bible translation has ever done.
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That's the trouble. The bible translators do what you are doing and make no distinction-- willy nilly using their own words, while the actual text specifies something else. That's how we end up with silliness like "God" "god" "God" "LORD" "Lord" and "lord."
 
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