Waiting on Him
Active member
I see in 168 they were born of corrupt seed.
Mattathias
Well-known member
“I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.”
The Apostles’ Creed. Though it wasn’t written by the Apostles and is dated to several centuries after their day, it is fully compatible with what Yahweh says about himself.
It wasn’t wasn’t the angels who created heaven and earth. It was God alone, by himself, the Father almighty, who did.
Waiting on Him
Active member
I was once in this camp. Why do you believe that there are two accounts of Joseph’s genealogy in the scriptures?
Mattathias
Well-known member
I don’t believe there are two accounts of Joseph’s genealogy in the scriptures.
What took you out of the camp?
Waiting on Him
Active member
These are good questions for another topic.
The topic at hand is a very good one for me, so I believe I’m going to refuse to discuss at this time.
Waiting on Him
Active member
I do believe there are angles in scripture, only not as the mythological narrative shows. I believe they are ministering spirits as Paul says.
Messengers of God.
Messengers of God.
Waiting on Him
Active member
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
— Hebrews 1:12-14
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
— Hebrews 2:3-11
— Hebrews 1:12-14
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
— Hebrews 2:3-11
Isaiah contradicts Moses in several places, but not in this case.
It's after the fact-- Look how Isaiah 24 begins--
Behold, Yahweh maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
and this describes it--
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
So when in Isaiah 44 it shouldn't be surprising to read, speaking of Jacob-- that Yahweh created him... forming him in the womb. Genesis two tells us the same thing with respect to Adam. Yahweh describes himself in the account--
Thus saith the Yahweh-- the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Yahweh of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no elohim.
It doesn't mean there are no other elohim-- it means Yahweh has no equal among the host of heaven-- he is the first in rank, and has the final say-- with no elohim equal to him. Yahweh is the Chief elohim. But Genesis is clear and plural-- he did not create alone.
Mattathias
Well-known member
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
(Genesis 1:1)
God. Elohim. Singular.
God and others didn’t create the heavens and the earth. As the Apostles’ Creed rightly says, the Father almighty did.
Waiting on Him
Active member
Isaiah 44 in my opinion is speaking of Christ. Christ was formed of God in the spiritual womb above just as Paul says he also was. Jerusalem above the mother of us all.
It’s only my opinion that Gods creation spoken of in Genesis began in the first century with the man Jesus Christ first century. The image of the invisible God.
That's the point I've been trying to make with @Mattathias -- there is a reason that good folks equate Yahweh and the messiah-spirit that descended and became flesh in the man Jesus. Yes, Yahweh is the first and foremost elohim. SDA believers and JW's alike equate this figure to the archangel Michael-- and consider him an elohim son of God-- the only begotten spirit son who was breathed into mankind in the beginning. That's exactly how Genesis two describes it.
Genesis 1 has elohim-- PLURAL creating the world, and Genesis 2 says specifically that one of these-- the Chief elohim called Yahweh is the one who first created mankind. I'm not making it up-- I'm pointing to what the text actually says.
The_H_C
New member
Angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Job 38:7, rejoicing after Earth was created.
Job 1 also mentioned “sons of God”, among whom Satan entered, to take his ‘station’ before Jehovah.
Angels are also mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 as ‘sinning’ (as all of God’s intelligent creatures can do through exercise of Free Will), a reference to Genesis 6:1-4.
Their influence on men in the pre-Flood world explains why the Flood had to be a global event.
Jude makes the same reference in Jude 6, explaining that they “forsook their proper dwelling place” ( the Heavens) when they came to Earth.
Jesus expelled a lot of them from the Jews. It seems, as God’s favored people of the time, the Jews were targeted for attack… that too would make sense.
Job 1 also mentioned “sons of God”, among whom Satan entered, to take his ‘station’ before Jehovah.
Angels are also mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 as ‘sinning’ (as all of God’s intelligent creatures can do through exercise of Free Will), a reference to Genesis 6:1-4.
Their influence on men in the pre-Flood world explains why the Flood had to be a global event.
Jude makes the same reference in Jude 6, explaining that they “forsook their proper dwelling place” ( the Heavens) when they came to Earth.
Jesus expelled a lot of them from the Jews. It seems, as God’s favored people of the time, the Jews were targeted for attack… that too would make sense.