Winds of Doctrine

[Studyman]

It seems prudent for those truly seeking to "Prove all things" to be curious about this scripture;

Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

I am hoping to start a conversation about these "Winds of Doctrine" that Paul says exists, which I expect is a major reason for such a division between the Word of God and the religious philosophies of this world. I look forward to this discussion.

I will start by posting what I see, as a falsehood or "leaven" as it is also referred to, which is widely taught, and believed on, but is not true. Since these are important for the brethren to identify, I look forward to other additions as well.

The Doctrine; "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Commandments to the letter".

I hear this doctrine bandied about all the time, and as leaven, it spreads throughout the mind, and infects everything we read about God.

When Jesus defined the Pharisees, HE says the exact opposite. EVERY TIME HE Addressed the Pharisees it was to expose the fact that they are NOT keeping God's Commandments, that they were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, not God, that they were given God Law through Moses, But DID NOT Keep it. That they Transgressed God's Commandments, "Omitted" the Weightier matter of the Law, and over and over.

And the Law and Prophets, prophesied if Shepherds who became partial in the law. That despised the Law, that rejected God's Commandments. Over and over, they were rebuked, not because they "kept the Law to the letter" as "MANY" who come in Christ's Name Preach, but because they "TRANSGRESSED, disobeyed, rejected, God's Law. Something Zacharias nor Abraham did.

So where does this false doctrine come from, that crafty men (and women) lie in wait to deceive with?

I know, and would love to hear your thoughts. They quote scripture, like the serpent is known to do.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

They say this is proof that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by keeping the commandments of God.

So what were the "Works of the Law" Moses gave, regarding Justification?

Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall "Love his neighbor as himself and his sins are forgiven? Or did Moses say "If a man sins he shall Keep the Sabbath days Holy, and your sins are forgiven? How about, if a man sins, HE shall keep the 10 commandments, and your sins are forgiven?

The answer to all these questions is no. None of these were given by Moses as "works of the Law" for justification/forgiveness.

What were the Work's required by the Law of Moses, before forgiveness was granted? Read Lev. 4 if you are interested in the answer.

There was a Priesthood Covenant made with Levi, on Israel's behalf, which included taking a animal to the Levite Priest, Killing it, and allowing the priest to perform sacrificial rituals for the forgiveness of sins. It was called the Levitical Priesthood.

It was a temporary Priesthood which was to be in place, "till the Seed should come" who was not a Levite, but from Judah. It is Prophesied that this "SEED" would become the new High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek" and not the "Order of Aaron" making this Priesthood old, and ready to vanish away..

The Pharisees had created a business around this temporary Priesthood, through Tithes, and changing money, and selling sacrifices for justification.

John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

They had rejected much of God's Law, including the weightier matters of the Law, but had held to their version of the Levitical Priesthood.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Pharisees were not trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws to the letter, they were trying to sell salvation by promoting their version of a Priesthood which had become obsolete. Claiming that before sins were forgiven, they had to purchase a turtle dove from them and kill it "After the manner of Moses".

These Jews knew their religious business was in danger if the source of their wealth and power became obsolete.

The deceiver promotes this doctrine, to discourage folks from believing in the God of the Bible and discouraging them to listening to Him, just as it did with Eve.

Take Heed of these winds of doctrine brothers. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

 

[Mr E]

It seems prudent for those truly seeking to "Prove all things" to be curious about this scripture;

Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

I am hoping to start a conversation about these "Winds of Doctrine" that Paul says exists, which I expect is a major reason for such a division between the Word of God and the religious philosophies of this world. I look forward to this discussion.

I will start by posting what I see, as a falsehood or "leaven" as it is also referred to, which is widely taught, and believed on, but is not true. Since these are important for the brethren to identify, I look forward to other additions as well.

The Doctrine; "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Commandments to the letter".

I hear this doctrine bandied about all the time, and as leaven, it spreads throughout the mind, and infects everything we read about God.

When Jesus defined the Pharisees, HE says the exact opposite. EVERY TIME HE Addressed the Pharisees it was to expose the fact that they are NOT keeping God's Commandments, that they were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, not God, that they were given God Law through Moses, But DID NOT Keep it. That they Transgressed God's Commandments, "Omitted" the Weightier matter of the Law, and over and over.

And the Law and Prophets, prophesied if Shepherds who became partial in the law. That despised the Law, that rejected God's Commandments. Over and over, they were rebuked, not because they "kept the Law to the letter" as "MANY" who come in Christ's Name Preach, but because they "TRANSGRESSED, disobeyed, rejected, God's Law. Something Zacharias nor Abraham did.

So where does this false doctrine come from, that crafty men (and women) lie in wait to deceive with?

I know, and would love to hear your thoughts. They quote scripture, like the serpent is known to do.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

They say this is proof that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by keeping the commandments of God.

So what were the "Works of the Law" Moses gave, regarding Justification?

Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall "Love his neighbor as himself and his sins are forgiven? Or did Moses say "If a man sins he shall Keep the Sabbath days Holy, and your sins are forgiven? How about, if a man sins, HE shall keep the 10 commandments, and your sins are forgiven?

The answer to all these questions is no. None of these were given by Moses as "works of the Law" for justification/forgiveness.

What were the Work's required by the Law of Moses, before forgiveness was granted? Read Lev. 4 if you are interested in the answer.

There was a Priesthood Covenant made with Levi, on Israel's behalf, which included taking a animal to the Levite Priest, Killing it, and allowing the priest to perform sacrificial rituals for the forgiveness of sins. It was called the Levitical Priesthood.

It was a temporary Priesthood which was to be in place, "till the Seed should come" who was not a Levite, but from Judah. It is Prophesied that this "SEED" would become the new High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek" and not the "Order of Aaron" making this Priesthood old, and ready to vanish away..

The Pharisees had created a business around this temporary Priesthood, through Tithes, and changing money, and selling sacrifices for justification.

John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

They had rejected much of God's Law, including the weightier matters of the Law, but had held to their version of the Levitical Priesthood.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Pharisees were not trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws to the letter, they were trying to sell salvation by promoting their version of a Priesthood which had become obsolete. Claiming that before sins were forgiven, they had to purchase a turtle dove from them and kill it "After the manner of Moses".

These Jews knew their religious business was in danger if the source of their wealth and power became obsolete.

The deceiver promotes this doctrine, to discourage folks from believing in the God of the Bible and discouraging them to listening to Him, just as it did with Eve.

Take Heed of these winds of doctrine brothers. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

They were putting on a good show, in other words. Representing themselves as law keepers and experts in the law- Rulers and rule keepers and rule makers, but their hearts were far from our Father's. Experts in the letter of the law, but aliens to the spirit of the law.

 

[MatthewG]

Scriptures indicate that some people who came out of their old traditions of what was once kept by men, they would forbid people to marry and abstain from food. That something remembered anyway maybe Galatians ?

 

[Studyman]

They were putting on a good show, in other words. Representing themselves as law keepers and experts in the law- Rulers and rule keepers and rule makers, but their hearts were far from our Father's. Experts in the letter of the law, but aliens to the spirit of the law.

I believe your words to be true. But I think it's applicable and prudent to mention, that most were just following the doctrines and traditions of a centuries old religion. When Jesus questioned them, He was also questioning their parents, their grandparents. When Jesus was rebuking them, HE was also rebuking their parents, their grandparents. To accept His correction would have been difficult, I happen to know this from personal experience.

Zacharias was one written exception, along with his son and Simeon. Peter explains why they knew the Christ when HE came to them, but the Pharisees did not, in my view.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And again by Paul in his letter to Titus.

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[Studyman]

Scriptures indicate that some people who came out of their old traditions of what was once kept by men, they would forbid people to marry and abstain from food. That something remembered anyway maybe Galatians ?

I think you are speaking to 1 Tim. 4:

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Some say these are God's Commandments that Jesus, Peter, Paul, and every example of Faith in the Bible followed.

But I don't believe God is the devil, nor do I believe His Commandments are "Doctrine of the devil.

I also believe every creature of God is Good. Even Maggots, and stink bugs, and slugs and pigs have a perfectly righteous purpose. But just not for food. Certainly Paul isn't speaking about abstaining from "meat" which God has Created to be received.

I interviewed a Rabbi once years ago and asked him why they abstained from eating goat meat, when goat milk was also offered on the same table. He mentioned some law restricting this. I asked him about righteous Abraham.

Gen. 18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

He got kind of testy with me, and shrugged it off.

I think these are the Jewish fables and doctrines "Abstaining from meats which God has created to be received".

Good question.

 

[Arial]

The Doctrine; "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Commandments to the letter".

The Pharisees did in fact believe that salvation required two thing, being the seed of Abraham and keeping the commandments. And they did indeed believe that it was the letter of the law that counted, not the spirit of the law. They could not even see the spirit of the law because there was no faith attached to their rituals. However, perfect obedience to the law from birth onward, narry a slip up, would save a person---see Jesus and His life---. The problem is such a thing is not possible since sin dwells in us.

And the Law and Prophets, prophesied if Shepherds who became partial in the law. That despised the Law, that rejected God's Commandments. Over and over, they were rebuked, not because they "kept the Law to the letter" as "MANY" who come in Christ's Name Preach, but because they "TRANSGRESSED, disobeyed, rejected, God's Law. Something Zacharias nor Abraham did.

Who are these many who come in Christ's name that preach that? I have never heard it.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

They say this is proof that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by keeping the commandments of God.

"They" say no such thing. That scripture has nothing to do with proof of anything to do with the Pharisees. It tells us that we are not justified (which means counted as righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ) by our works or the works of the law, but by the works that Jesus did, which was perfect obedience, death on the cross, resurrection, ascension.

The Pharisees had created a business around this temporary Priesthood, through Tithes, and changing money, and selling sacrifices for justification.

They weren't selling sacrifices for justification---you ma have them confused with pre-reformation catholics. They were selling the animals to be sacrificed. The old was still in effect. The new did not go into effect until after the ascension, specifically, probably, at Pentecost.

They had rejected much of God's Law, including the weightier matters of the Law, but had held to their version of the Levitical Priesthood.

The Levitical priesthood was still in effect. Jesus was angry that these business transactions were being held in the courts of the Lord.

The Pharisees were not trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws to the letter, they were trying to sell salvation by promoting their version of a Priesthood which had become obsolete. Claiming that before sins were forgiven, they had to purchase a turtle dove from them and kill it "After the manner of Moses".

They did believe obedience to the law granted salvation, they were mistaken in thinking that they were keeping it. The old priesthood was still in effect until Jesus entered the Most Holy Place as High Priest forever, and gave all who believe in Him access to the very throne of God, through the rending of the curtain of separation (figuratively His body) and the shedding of His blood for purification and the forgiveness of sins.

The deceiver promotes this doctrine, to discourage folks from believing in the God of the Bible and discouraging them to listening to Him, just as it did with Eve.

I know of no Christian who discourages folks from believing in the God of the Bible or of listening to Him.

So do you still believe that you can attain to salvation by your works? Yes or no.

 

[Studyman]

The Pharisees did in fact believe that salvation required two thing, being the seed of Abraham and keeping the commandments. And they did indeed believe that it was the letter of the law that counted, not the spirit of the law. They could not even see the spirit of the law because there was no faith attached to their rituals. However, perfect obedience to the law from birth onward, narry a slip up, would save a person---see Jesus and His life---. The problem is such a thing is not possible since sin dwells in us.

Jesus doesn't say this about them.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Not God as the religions of this world promote.

And again;

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Stephen knew this.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Paul understood this.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (Pharisees) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Malachi knew this.

Mal. 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Jeremiah knew this.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

So I understand the teaching you are defending, I am just saying there is no Scriptural evidence to back it up. It is a doctrine, but not from the Word of God. The Pharisees were not "trying" to earn Salvation at all. Like Eve, they were already convinced they were all set. That They were already heirs of Abraham.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

The Pharisees were not trying to earn Salvation. They were trying to make everyone come to them for Salvation. As prescribed by the Levitical Priesthood. They were not trying to teach men to Love God, and Love their Neighbor with all their heart. Even the implication is ridiculous.

And you can find nothing from the actual scriptures to support this foolishness.

It's OK, I was deceived by these shysters to for a time. We all are, as the Scriptures say. But now that we have the Oracles of God in our own Hands, we can look for our self, and avoid the corruption and deception preaching these Winds of Doctrine brings to others.

Who are these many who come in Christ's name that preach that? I have never heard it


"They" say no such thing. That scripture has nothing to do with proof of anything to do with the Pharisees. It tells us that we are not justified (which means counted as righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ) by our works or the works of the law, but by the works that Jesus did, which was perfect obedience, death on the cross, resurrection, ascension.

Justified mean forgiven.

You are drifting away for the topic at hand. The popular religious philosophy that is taught by "Many" who come in Jesus Name, is that the Pharisees were trying to please God, or Earn Salvation from God, by obeying His Laws "to the letter". There is no Scriptural evidence to support this doctrine, but there are volumes of Scriptures, mostly from Jesus Himself, which expose this doctrine as false. Making it one of the winds of doctrine Paul warns about in Ephesians 4. Why are you defending it so hard.

They weren't selling sacrifices for justification---you ma have them confused with pre-reformation catholics. They were selling the animals to be sacrificed. The old was still in effect. The new did not go into effect until after the ascension, specifically, probably, at Pentecost.

They were selling Sacrifices. Jesus didn't whip them because they were following God's Commandments Arial. Jesus was following God's Commandments. Zacharias followed God's Commandments. The Pharisees were not. At least if one believes what Jesus says.

I might remind you that Jesus had been healing lepers, and forgiving sins without once involving a Levite Priest as the "works" of the Forgiveness and healing Laws of the Levitical Priesthood require. Jesus was already their High Priest. He was anointed High Priest, according to the Law, by a True Levite Priest, John the Baptist. Truly aspects of this Levitical Priesthood was growing old and ready to vanish long before Jesus was murdered.

The Levitical priesthood was still in effect. Jesus was angry that these business transactions were being held in the courts of the Lord.

Actually it wasn't. Unless you believe Jesus Sinned against God. He was the Prophet Moses Spoke about. Men were required to listen to HIS Word's while HE was alive, and after they murdered Him, they were still required to listen to His Words HE spoke while HE was alive. Some religious folks imply that the Word's Jesus Spoke before HE was murdered lost validity after HE was murdered. Like His Command for those HE healed to "Go and sin not more". I find no scriptural support for this religious philosophy.

But you are getting off topic again. The Pharisees were not trying to Please God, or Earn Salvation from God, by obeying His Laws. Jesus said so. The entire Bible says so. Jesus was angry with them because they were "Children of Disobedience" not because they were trying to obey God's Law to the Letter. In Fact, if you could just calm down a little, and really think about what you are saying, you would see how foolish it is to suggest that God/Jesus would whip and reject people for doing what HE commanded them to do.

This is why Leaven/deception is so bad, because it spreads and corrupts the entire mind, to the point where a person actually believes the men who murdered Jesus, were doing so to earn Salvation from a God who said "Thou shall not kill".

They did believe obedience to the law granted salvation, they were mistaken in thinking that they were keeping it. The old priesthood was still in effect until Jesus entered the Most Holy Place as High Priest forever, and gave all who believe in Him access to the very throne of God, through the rending of the curtain of separation (figuratively His body) and the shedding of His blood for purification and the forgiveness of sins.

But Ariel, you are getting off the topic again. You might have at least some Biblical support for the doctrine you are promoting if you were speaking about Zacharias, but not the Pharisees.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Perhaps Zacharias is an example of one who believed they can earn salvation by keeping God's Commandments "to the letter". And it would be wonderful to explore that thought. But the religious philosophy that the Pharisees were trying to Earn Salvation by following the instructions God gave them is simply BS. If the Holy scriptures are our guide,

I know of no Christian who discourages folks from believing in the God of the Bible or of listening to Him.

So do you still believe that you can attain to salvation by your works? Yes or no.

The very popular and widespread religious philosophy taught and defended by Many, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, which implies that God rejected and punished His People for striving to do what HE told them to do, (Obeying God's Commandments) is one of the worse and most insidious lies I have ever heard. The damage done to folks who fall for this BS is staggering in my view. I am here to point these "doctrines" out that Jesus SAID we would encounter, from those who "Come in His Name", and to "Take Heed" of them. Mostly by honest conversation. and unbiased examination of Scriptures.

It is a doctrine of the devil created and spread "by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

This is why I referenced all the scriptures I did, so that others, who believe these warnings of Jesus, can look into and consider. Surely a man/woman doesn't want to further these winds of doctrine, after they have had opportunity to "Prove" them by the LIGHT of the Gospel.

Shining the Light of the World onto this Doctrine shows us it's origin.

Frankly, I'm Grateful for it.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Scriptures indicate that some people who came out of their old traditions of what was once kept by men, they would forbid people to marry and abstain from food. That something remembered anyway maybe Galatians ?

You may be speaking of the Essenes. It is said they forbade marriage. Funny how things work. It is also said that they are responsible for the Dead Sea scrolls. Something is a little fishy though; as Jesus never rebuked them, but scripture mentions those who demand abstinence from marriage.

1 Timothy 4:3

 

[Arial]

Jesus doesn't say this about them.

History does. But enough. You can' t seem to resist the urge to hear your own voice pontificate without ceasing, proclaiming your own piety and holiness much like the Pharisees----long prayers to be heard by men. And I wouldn't stand and listen to someone like that and certainly I'm not going to read their self indulgent ranting, when I already know their voice to them is the only one that counts. Everyone else is deceived. Good luck getting any meaningful conversation going when most of us have already learned that nothing we say is of any account, since we are all wrong according to you.

 

[Studyman]

History does. But enough. You can' t seem to resist the urge to hear your own voice pontificate without ceasing, proclaiming your own piety and holiness much like the Pharisees----long prayers to be heard by men. And I wouldn't stand and listen to someone like that and certainly I'm not going to read their self indulgent ranting, when I already know their voice to them is the only one that counts. Everyone else is deceived. Good luck getting any meaningful conversation going when most of us have already learned that nothing we say is of any account, since we are all wrong according to you.

Your anger and gnashing of teeth is expected, even prophesied, but not warranted based on the content of my post.

Thanks for your spirit filled reply just the same.

 

[popsthebuilder]

History does. But enough. You can' t seem to resist the urge to hear your own voice pontificate without ceasing, proclaiming your own piety and holiness much like the Pharisees----long prayers to be heard by men. And I wouldn't stand and listen to someone like that and certainly I'm not going to read their self indulgent ranting, when I already know their voice to them is the only one that counts. Everyone else is deceived. Good luck getting any meaningful conversation going when most of us have already learned that nothing we say is of any account, since we are all wrong according to you.

Must your discussions always devolve to personal attack with those you don't agree with?

 

[Arial]

Your anger and gnashing of teeth is expected, even prophesied, but not warranted based on the content of my post.

Thanks for your spirit filled reply just the same.

Hey. My apologies. But what you deem anger and gnashing of teeth had nothing to do with what you said. I don't even know what you said. It was about your refusal to respect my thrice polite request to not post ten page replies to me, without really saying anything except that I and everyone else are victims of religious philosophy.