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Total Depravity, Totally Refuted

R

robert pate

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Calvinist want us to believe that because of the fall man cannot hear and believe the Gospel so that he can be saved.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says Adam lost his free will when he sinned against God. What Adam and Eve lost was their relationship with God, not their free will. Why would they lose their free will? In Genesis 4:4, we see Abel by his own free will bringing an offering to the Lord. It was a blood offering that pointed to Christ. Cain also brought an offering to the Lord; it was vegetables out of his garden. The Lord was pleased with Abels decision to bring a blood offering but was not to happy with Cain's decision to bring vegetables. Both men exercised their free wills, which refutes the idea that fallen man cannot chose God and serve him.

Calvinist should take the "T" for total depravity, turn it upside down _I_ and sit on it. It is a proven fact that multitudes of people have by their own free will accepted Christ as their savior. I happen to be one of them. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 people heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. They heard, they believed and were saved. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

God didn't create a bunch of mindless robots that can't hear and believe the Gospel. Like limited atonement, Total depravity is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ. God sends his Son into the world to save the world and then makes everyone as dumb as a rock so that they can't hear and believe the Gospel. Does that make sense to you? If you think that is what God does it is because you are spiritually dead.
 
robert pate said:
In Genesis 4:4, we see Abel by his own free will bringing an offering to the Lord. It was a blood offering that pointed to Christ. Cain also brought an offering to the Lord; it was vegetables out of his garden. The Lord was pleased with Abels decision to bring a blood offering but was not to happy with Cain's decision to bring vegetables. Both men exercised their free wills, which refutes the idea that fallen man cannot chose God and serve him.
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There's a reason Abel brought "of the firstlings of his flock" and Cain brought "vegetables."

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

The difference was their heart, not in what they offered. Abel gave "of the firstlings": ie: he gave from the best of what he had. Cain "brought of the fruit of the ground." It doesn't say he brought some of the best he had. His heart wasn't in it. Abel's was.

But you're right about total depravity.
 
If thou doesn't think there is such a thing as total depravity, then thou shouldn't have a problem with ignoring the concept of Endless Punishment.
 
robert pate said:
Calvinist want us to believe that because of the fall man cannot hear and believe the Gospel so that he can be saved.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says Adam lost his free will when he sinned against God. What Adam and Eve lost was their relationship with God, not their free will. Why would they lose their free will? In Genesis 4:4, we see Abel by his own free will bringing an offering to the Lord. It was a blood offering that pointed to Christ. Cain also brought an offering to the Lord; it was vegetables out of his garden. The Lord was pleased with Abels decision to bring a blood offering but was not to happy with Cain's decision to bring vegetables. Both men exercised their free wills, which refutes the idea that fallen man cannot chose God and serve him.

Calvinist should take the "T" for total depravity, turn it upside down _I_ and sit on it. It is a proven fact that multitudes of people have by their own free will accepted Christ as their savior. I happen to be one of them. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 people heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. They heard, they believed and were saved. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

God didn't create a bunch of mindless robots that can't hear and believe the Gospel. Like limited atonement, Total depravity is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ. God sends his Son into the world to save the world and then makes everyone as dumb as a rock so that they can't hear and believe the Gospel. Does that make sense to you? If you think that is what God does it is because you are spiritually dead.
Click to expand...
It would be good to present the good news of Jesus Christ without suggesting people perform their own colonoscopies. Now to claim that man has free will needs to be presented with biblical support and not as a bombastic pronouncement from on high.

As to free will one would need to explain these texts in order to establish that mankind has free-will apart from the interference of God.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.​

Here we are told that mankind does not have free-will unless The Father intervenes and draws them.(John 6:44) In other words without the drawing of the Father no man can exercise their free-will and come to Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.​


This could be interpreted to say by his own will He birthed us. Why would this be the case of we have free will?

1 Cor 2:14 says, But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. How then does a natural man become a spiritual man.

There needs to be more than a tossed insult and generalized pronouncements to the good-news of Jesus Christ. If our manners speak louder than the gospel.
 
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shroom said:
There's a reason Abel brought "of the firstlings of his flock" and Cain brought "vegetables."

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

The difference was their heart, not in what they offered. Abel gave "of the firstlings": ie: he gave from the best of what he had. Cain "brought of the fruit of the ground." It doesn't say he brought some of the best he had. His heart wasn't in it. Abel's was.

But you're right about total depravity.
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Abel was a Christian, saved by grace through faith. Cain wasn't and thought that he could be saved by his works and religion. Abel was the world's first Christian Martyer.
 
Grace Accepted said:
It would be good to present the good news of Jesus Christ without suggestion people perform their own colonoscopies. Now to claim that man has free will needs to be presented with biblical support and not as a bombastic pronouncement from on high.

As to free will one would need to explain these texts in order to establish that mankind has free-will apart from the interference of God.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.​

Here we are told that mankind does not have free-will unless The Father intervenes and draws them. In other words witout te drawing of the Father no man can exercise their free-will and come to Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.​


This could be interpreted to say by his own will He birthed us. Why would this be the case of we have free will?

1 Cor 2:14 says, But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. How then does a natural man become a spiritual man.

There needs to be more than a tossed insult and generalized pronouncements to the good-news of Jesus Christ. If our manners speak louder than the gospel.
Click to expand...
Everyone is born spiritually dead and need to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23.

God does not decide who will be saved and then zap them with the Holy Spirit. To be born again people need to hear and believe the Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly by doing for them that which they cannot do for themselves, Romans 4:5 and then reconciles them unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. All who believe the Gospel posses the Holy Spirit. Salvation always has been and always will be by faith. Faith in Christ and his Gospel, unfortunately, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion, which is man conceived and is the broad road to destruction.
 
7thMoon said:
If thou doesn't think there is such a thing as total depravity, then thou shouldn't have a problem with ignoring the concept of Endless Punishment.
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All come into the world totally depraved. All need to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, Ephesians 1:13.
 
robert pate said:
Abel was a Christian,
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lol. No, Robert. Christianity would not become available for another ~4000 years. Abel may have known about the promised seed, but he never heard of Jesus Christ.
robert pate said:
saved by grace through faith. Cain wasn't and thought that he could be saved by his works and religion. Abel was the world's first Christian Martyer.
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Some of your assertions are beyond ridiculous.
 
shroom said:
lol. No, Robert. Christianity would not become available for another ~4000 years. Abel may have known about the promised seed, but he never heard of Jesus Christ.

Some of your assertions are beyond ridiculous.
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Abel knew something. He brought a blood offering to the Lord, which pointed to Christ. Abraham was also a Christian.
 
Arial said:
I thought from the OP title that you were refuting total depravity.
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They are, but they can still hear the Gospel and be saved. You believe that they can't, which makes God unjust.
 
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