The silence of God - why?

[O'Darby III]

Just thinking out loud here, but I always find this a bit disconcerting.

I can understand why God doesn't announce his reality with billboards in the sky and appearances on late-night TV. That would be coercive, like holding a gun to someone's head and demanding "Say you love me." People would turn to God not on the basis of their own free will and a genuine understanding of why they need God, but rather on the basis of their free will having been overwhelmed by his stark, undeniable reality.

But what about people who HAVE made the decision and HAVE turned to God? Why would God not make his reality more obvious and convincing to them? Surely my Christian walk would be enhanced by the confidence a more concrete manifestation of God would bring. "Yes, it's real! I have made the rignt decision!"

Instead, we are left with what may seem to be the still, small voice of the Spirit, with what may seem to be a providential act of God, or with what may seem to be an answer to prayer or even a miracle - but these are pretty iffy "seems" that typically lend themselves to other explanations as well. How comforting it would be to objectively and convincingly be told "You've made the right decision. Welcome aboard."

Some folks do, of course, report this: Voices, visions, visitations, whatever. Often these folks seem to be a bit disturbed or histrionic, which makes what they report less convincing to the rest of us. But why not us - why not everyone who has made the decision and turned to God?

The answer that atheists love, of course, is: "Because their ain't no God." Well, yes, that's one possibility. Since I reject that position, all I can conclude is that this level of certainty is simply not supposed to be part of the Christian walk. It is somehow part of the plan that we are to live with an element of uncertainty and perhaps doubt even after we have turned to God. It tends to make me think the purpose of earthly existence, even for Christians, is more complex and multi-faceted than most Christians seem to think.

 

[SteVen]

I blame the Bible. Or more specifically those who DECIDED that we needed one. Not sure it was God's idea.

- Did Adam have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Abel have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Enoch have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Abraham have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Noah have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Jacob have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Joseph have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Moses have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.

Do we need to have a Bible to have a relationship with God? No.
If we didn't have a Bible would God speak to us directly instead? I believe he would.

Some folks do, of course, report this: Voices, visions, visitations, whatever. Often these folks seem to be a bit disturbed or histrionic, which makes what they report less convincing to the rest of us. But why not us - why not everyone who has made the decision and turned to God?

Because we have a Bible, these folks that hear from God are suspect.
Were the patriarchs suspect? What's wrong with this picture?

]

 

[O'Darby III]

It is somehow part of the plan that we are to live with an element of uncertainty and perhaps doubt even after we have turned to God. It tends to make me think the purpose of earthly existence, even for Christians, is more complex and multi-faceted than most Christians seem to think.

Thank you for this insightful thread, O'Darby! You're the best, buddy! Actually, I'm going to go back into my hole for awhile so this forum doesn't turn into the Steven & O'Darby Show.

I just wanted to expand on what I'm suggesting here. Pope Francis recently stirred up a firestorm with his comments about God allowing other religions and his suggestion that this is God's plan. https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...aid-god-has-allowed-different-religions-world.

My own thinking is increasingly along these lines. The multiplicity of religions simply has to be God's plan. We are meant to learn and grow through this chaotic mess. I don't believe it's simply a matter of "This is what you get when people have free will." I think it's more in the vein of "No, this is actually God's plan."

This doesn't mean I think all religions are equally correct or that it makes no difference what one believes. I do suspect they are all glimpses of the truth and serve their purposes in God's plan. Hindu and Buddhist writings, with which I'm most familiar, are extremely profound and have informed my own beliefs.

I don't claim to have worked out all the details or to understand how this dovetails with Jesus' ostensible claim to be the "only way" or the Christian doctrine of exclusivity. I simply suspect that God doesn't manifest himself unequivocally and objectively to Christians because this would short-circuit our interaction with other religions and stunt our own growth. These other religions many despise as satanic are, in fact, godly in their own way and an aspect of God's plan, unclear as that may now be - because it's supposed to be unclear.

FWIW. YMMV.

 

[O'Darby III]

I blame the Bible. Or more specifically those who DECIDED that we needed one. Not sure it was God's idea.

- Did Adam have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Abel have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Enoch have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Abraham have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Noah have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Jacob have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Joseph have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.
- Did Moses have a Bible? No. Did he have a relationship with God? Yes.

Do we need to have a Bible to have a relationship with God? No.
If we didn't have a Bible would God speak to us directly instead? I believe he would.


Because we have a Bible, these folks that hear from God are suspect.
Were the patriarchs suspect? What's wrong with this picture?

]

I did have one slightly weird incident perhaps 20 years ago. As I was waking up - the hypnopompic state where many odd things occur - a calm male voice simply said "Without me you can do nothing." I was so half-asleep that my reaction was nothing more than "What the heck was THAT?" An hour or so later, I thought "That sounded sort of biblical." (Duh.) I then tracked it down as the last six words of John 15:5. Cool!

So maybe God hasn't been silent and I need to change my complaint to "Why doesn't he manifest himself clearly and unequivocally when we aren't half-asleep?" I really don't know who or what it was, but it was one of those things that certainly sticks with you.

 

[SteVen]

I did have one slightly weird incident perhaps 20 years ago. As I was waking up - the hypnopompic state where many odd things occur - a calm male voice simply said "Without me you can do nothing." I was so half-asleep that my reaction was nothing more than "What the heck was THAT?" An hour or so later, I thought "That sounded sort of biblical." (Duh.) I then tracked it down as the last six words of John 15:5. Cool!

So maybe God hasn't been silent and I need to change my complaint to "Why doesn't he manifest himself clearly and unequivocally when we aren't half-asleep?" I really don't know who or what it was, but it was one of those things that certainly sticks with you.

Good testimony, thanks.

We all have that voice(s) that converse in our heads/minds.
I listen for statements that are not the way I would speak.

One recent example was when I was asking God about what was going to happen with my __________________? (fill in the blank)
What I heard was, "Help is on the way." That lies outside of my usual thought patterns. I took it as a word from God for me.
The human response would have been gloom and doom, or some worrisome anxiety.

'

 

[O'Darby III]

We all have that voice(s) that converse in our heads/minds.

Just to be clear, this wasn't "in my head." This was definitely in the room.

The only other experience like this I've had was when I was about to back my van into a closed gate. A female voice simply said "Stop." The tone was absolutely odd - very calm but with just a slight urgency. I've tried to reproduce it and can't. I'm guessing either the Blessed Virgin or my late cousin Shirley.

 

[SteVen]

Just to be clear, this wasn't "in my head." This was definitely in the room.

Thanks for the clarification.
A reference to the "audible" voice of God.
There is a voice that I recognize. But doubt whether anyone else in the room can hear it.

'

 

[O'Darby III]

And while I'm on a roll, my late wife was in the same bed worrying about what would become of me after she passed, and she very clearly heard her late mother's voice, right in front of her, say "He'll be OK" (which was true).

The seminal message of my life, in different circumstances, was my late father saying "I'm dead but I'm not dead."

Genuine contacts, in my opinion, all tend to be extremely short and simple.

"It's all demons, sweetie." - Aunty Jane

 

[SteVen]

The seminal message of my life, in different circumstances, was my late father saying "I'm dead but I'm not dead."

Wow. That's a good one.

Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

]

 

[O'Darby III]

Wow. That's a good one.

Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

]

Yes, that was pretty much what set me on any sort of spiritual path. Even in the most intense moments of doubt, I always come back to "I'm dead but I'm not dead." There's a whole story there - my father was a fantastically brilliant raging alcoholic who prayed with me to "receive Christ" a few months before he died. He was famous for saying pithy things that kind of stopped you in your tracks. After I finished my little Jesus prayer and asked if he'd prayed with me, he simply answered "Do you doubt?" When I told me older sister about "I'm dead but I'm not dead," she got pale and said "Oh, God, that's EXACTLY the sort of thing Dad would say!" Are those six words more significant to me than the entire Bible? ABSOLUTELY.

"It's all demons, sweetie." - Aunty Jane

(One of my battles with Aunty. She truly believed any and all anomalous phenomena were attributable to demons.)

 

[SteVen]

"It's all demons, sweetie." - Aunty Jane

(One of my battles with Aunty. She truly believed any and all anomalous phenomena were attributable to demons.)

That's a very prevalent POV.
Caused by Cessationism. IMO
Again, the Bible (or fundie biblical theology) getting in the way of hearing from directly from God.

/

 

[O'Darby III]

That's a very prevalent POV.
Caused by Cessationism. IMO
Again, the Bible (or fundie biblical theology) getting in the way of hearing from directly from God.

/

It's also driven by fear. The same thing that makes some people cling to a flat, 6000-year-old earth in the face of all evidence and rationality. "I have locked myself, knowingly and intentionally, so tightly into this 'religious straitjacket' that I can't live in the real world." There are VAST bodies of evidence, some (such as that for reincarnation) that are challenging to orthodox Christian beliefs. As I've said elsewhere, I have not only experienced anomalous phenomena but have spent literally thousands of hours studying them at the level of the American Society for Psychical Research, (British) Society for Psychical Research, IANDS and others. To attribute it all to "demons" is absolutely no different than insisting the earth is flat - it's a complete, head-in-the-sand abdication of the intellect and senses with which God has blessed us. It also makes God look like the Ineffectual Cosmic Doofus who can't protect a devout Christian who is having a profound Near Death Experience from encountering demons who convincingly and lovingly impersonate her late mother and grandfather. WTF? It's so utterly stupid that I have NO - NADA, ZERO, ZILCH - patience with it. My religion is going to take account in a rational manner of all that our intellects and senses can tell us - I am not going hide behind "demons" to prop a theology that pretty much doesn't make any sense in the first place.

Whew - too much caffeine this morning, O'Darby?