The Case Against Eternal Security - NOSAS

[Wrangler]

Jesus said to remain in him. He said this because we have the option not to remain in him.

Commands are only given when violating them is a possibility. No one commands you to get older, tired, hungry, etc. because these cannot be helped.

There are many more Scriptures that support our capacity to fall out of God's good grace.

 

[SteVen]

Jesus said to remain in him. He said this because we have the option not to remain in him.

There are two sides to this subject.
Biblical evidence for both views. (does that sound familiar?) - LOL

I'm defending the side for eternal security.
The opposite being eternal insecurity. (wait and see)
Is that how you want to live your life? In fear?

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd.

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[Wrangler]

Is that how you want to live your life? In fear?

I read somewhere that fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

In Star Trek Voyager there was an episode on fear. Captain Janeway asked what does fear give us? Causes us to avoid danger. I no longer have to fear the heat of the hot stove to know not to put my hand on it. Also, the inverse of fear is FAITH. If you have FAITH in YHWH and his Anointed, you have no need to fear anything else.

NIce psychological approach.

 

[SteVen]

I read somewhere that fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Christians love to say that, but what does it mean?

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[The_H_C]

Christians love to say that, but what does it mean?

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It’s a healthy fear, like children not wanting to displease their parents… make them unhappy.
As an example:
Now, (for the majority) parents love their kids. But if parents lay down a penalty for something (say, getting drunk), and the child gets drunk, sometimes the love the parent has, will move the parent to ‘let it slide.’

Is that wisdom?

Love can cause one to act as an enabler, not good.

God is always wise. So if we think, “I’m gonna do this one wrong thing, but God loves me, so I know He’ll forgive me”, ie., ‘let it slide’, we’re fooling ourselves.

Whereas, if we keep a proper fear of displeasing Him, that will keep us on the “straight & narrow” to a better degree & exercising self-control. And we can be wise and “make [His] heart rejoice.” — Proverbs 27:11

 

[Wrangler]

There are two sides to this subject.
Biblical evidence for both views. (does that sound familiar?) - LOL

I don't think there are two sides to this subject. What's familiar is you pushing this false narrative.

Provided we remain in Christ, out salvation is secure. As Paul wrote, nothing can separate us from God. So, there are 2 conditions.

1. We remain in Christ and are secure. John 15:4
2. If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth (not remain in Christ), no sacrifice for sins is left. Hebrews 10:26

Once one accepts the proper orientation of ones condition, there is total confidence either way. God is life. Turning your back on him is death. Simple.

 

[SteVen]

It’s a healthy fear, like children not wanting to displease their parents… make them unhappy.
As an example:
Now, (for the majority) parents love their kids. But if parents lay down a penalty for something (say, getting drunk), and the child gets drunk, sometimes the love the parent has, will move the parent to ‘let it slide.’

Is that wisdom?

Love can cause one to act as an enabler, not good.

God is always wise. So if we think, “I’m gonna do this one wrong thing, but God loves me, so I know He’ll forgive me”, ie., ‘let it slide’, we’re fooling ourselves.

Whereas, if we keep a proper fear of displeasing Him, that will keep us on the “straight & narrow” to a better degree & exercising self-control. And we can be wise and “make [His] heart rejoice.” — Proverbs 27:11

Well said. Thanks.

Oftentimes wrong has "natural" (supernatural?) consequences.
Getting drunk leads to a hangover.
Stealing a car leads to trouble with the law.
Illicit sex leads to STDs.

The crimes are self-punishing.
And should be lessons to learn how to live better.
We have correctional institutions and rehabilitation to help.

I think has similar goals for those who were created in his image.
An ultimate good that results from our correction and restoration.

This is why I disagree with eternal conscious torment. (hell)
What is the goal? Would anyone be corrected or restored by that?
No. Incinerating humans for all eternity has no positive purpose.
Even annihilation fails to serve a good purpose.
There are no atheists in the afterlife.

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[SteVen]

I don't think there are two sides to this subject. What's familiar is you pushing this false narrative.

LOL
I started a topic in support of eternal security and you started one against eternal security.
How can you say there are not two sides?

I'm beginning to question that value of this relationship. You refuse to respect anyone else's position.

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[mailmandan]

Christians love to say that, but what does it mean?

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I see fearing the Lord for the believer as fear of offending Him and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up. That is an unhealthy fear!

 

[SteVen]

I see fearing the Lord for the believer as fear of offending Him and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up. That is an unhealthy fear!

Well said.
I take that one step further and see God as one who can't be offended.
The one who has the hairs of my head numbered knows me AND how I will behave before I even act.

I don't use that as a license to sin. I want to maintain the relationship. But not out of fear of offending Him.

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[Mr E]

LOL
I started a topic in support of eternal security and you started one against eternal security.
How can you say there are not two sides?

I'm beginning to question that value of this relationship. You refuse to respect anyone else's position.

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Honestly-- I think this is the best approach.

Rather than rail against something you don't believe-- go start a topic centered on what you do believe.

I'm going to applaud @Wrangler for this, since I'm the one calling balls and strikes here.

 

[SteVen]

Honestly-- I think this is the best approach.

Rather than rail against something you don't believe-- go start a topic centered on what you do believe.

I'm going to applaud @Wrangler for this, since I'm the one calling balls and strikes here.

I agree.
But I had to disagree with this statement:

I don't think there are two sides to this subject. What's familiar is you pushing this false narrative.

Say what?

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