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Information about the book of Hebrews

TrevorL said:
Greetings meshak,

This is a fine line, but the Law of Moses is a complete whole and this should not be split into two portions, ceremonial law and moral law. The SDAs like to do this so that they can claim that the Sabbath is binding on the Gentiles today. Paul considers this subject in his Letter to the Romans and the whole section from the latter verses of Romans 6, through Romans 7 and the early verses of Romans 8 could be quoted relevant to this. Perhaps a few verses will give some indication:
Romans 6:12–15 (KJV): 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
We are under the moral constraints of the Life in Christ, with Christ as our example, and the fact that his sacrifice was as our representative and not substitute, then we need to live the crucified / resurrected life. But we are not under The Law, and this is speaking about the moral side of The Law. The Jews who were under The Law failed to keep it and they crucified Christ.

Romans 7:4–11 (KJV): 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence (or, coveting). For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
It is interesting in the above Paul illustrates the problem and failure by quoting the 10th Commandment.

Romans 8:2–3 (KJV): 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Deliverance and salvation is by means of Christ, and his death and resurrection, not by means of obeying the Law of Moses.

Kind regards
Trevor
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Hi Trevor, do you know an example of ceremonial, dietary law? Do you know where it is spotlighted in Galatians or Colossians? Or Hebrews?
 
meshak said:
Jesus abolished most ceremonial laws.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they did not practice moral laws but were so strict about ceremonial law.

Paul's "law" was a ceremonial law that told them that it is futile to practice for salvation.
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The subject matter or foundation of Hebrews. . "The first century reformation" . Many from my experience seem to ignore it and give more thought to the fifteenth century reformation a carbon copy of the first century reformation


I would offer the Son of man Jesus at the time of the first century reformation was used of the father to reform the government of Christ The father and the son, destroying the abomination of desolation, kings in Israel, a pagan foundation (out of sight out of mind ) no belief in a God not seen .

God in 1 Samuel 8 had given the faithless Jews over to do that which they should not of until the the tome of the first century reformation . He said to them. . For they have not rejected Samuel but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Samuel 8 :5-7 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

The time period there were kings in Israel was used as a parable or shadow using ceremonial law to signify the understanding . To signify is to use the temporal things seen to give us the unseen vision of parable called a figure in Hebrew 9

Hebrews 9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
 
Greetings again meshak and EarlyActs,
meshak said:
Paul's "law" was a ceremonial law that told them that it is futile to practice for salvation.
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Salvation does not come by means of obedience to law. Paul quotes the 10th Commandment as an illustration as to what he considers the Law. Salvation comes by belief of the Gospel. SDAs like to split the Law into moral law and ceremonial law, and they include the Sabbath on the side of the moral law.
EarlyActs said:
Hi Trevor, do you know an example of ceremonial, dietary law? Do you know where it is spotlighted in Galatians or Colossians? Or Hebrews?
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I consider Romans chapters 6-8 sufficient. If we need to obey the law of the Sabbath, do we need to keep the law concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, which the Jews in the land have recently kept for the seven days? Which side of the fence is the law concerning the seething of a young goat in its mother's milk? In most Jewish restaurants in order to strictly avoid this, you cannot have a meat product with a milk product on the menu. On the SDA side, my SDA workmate stated that SDAs argue whether it is lawful to clean your car windscreen on the Sabbath before going to Church. This is what is discussed at the Australian centre where EGW lived for some years and her cottage is preserved.

Kid regards
Trevor
 
meshak said:
That contradicts God and Jesus' word.

Jesus repeatedly tells us to "keep the commandments"
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You do not understand Christianity.
You don't understand the Christian new birth.
You don't understand what Jesus Christ accomplished for us.
You don't understand what God did for us on the day of Pentecost.

This is what happens when you stop reading the Bible at the end of the gospel of John.

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Greetings again meshak,
meshak said:
That contradicts God and Jesus' word.
Jesus repeatedly tells us to "keep the commandments"
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Jesus actually expands and breaks down the very motivation of the individual when he speaks of "Thou shalt not kill" and in so doing opens the way so that we might go through a process of transformation of character, a sublimation, a replacement therapy, similar to what Paul gives in Ephesians 4:22-24,25,26-27,28,29,30,31,32. We are saved by faith, and this faith will motivate us to keep all of Jesus' and the Apostles commandments and guidance and advice. We are saved by faith not law.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
meshak said:
without works, there is no faith and no salvation.,
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Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

meshak said:
I have faith in God and Jesus, and that's why I strive to be true to Them..
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Me too. But I also understand that the Bible does not end with the gospel of John and pick up again with the book of Revelation.

Learn about Christianity. It's primarily in the church epistles.
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again meshak and EarlyActs,

Salvation does not come by means of obedience to law. Paul quotes the 10th Commandment as an illustration as to what he considers the Law. Salvation comes by belief of the Gospel. SDAs like to split the Law into moral law and ceremonial law, and they include the Sabbath on the side of the moral law.

I consider Romans chapters 6-8 sufficient. If we need to obey the law of the Sabbath, do we need to keep the law concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, which the Jews in the land have recently kept for the seven days? Which side of the fence is the law concerning the seething of a young goat in its mother's milk? In most Jewish restaurants in order to strictly avoid this, you cannot have a meat product with a milk product on the menu. On the SDA side, my SDA workmate stated that SDAs argue whether it is lawful to clean your car windscreen on the Sabbath before going to Church. This is what is discussed at the Australian centre where EGW lived for some years and her cottage is preserved.

Kid regards
Trevor
Click to expand...

But I mean do you know the places in Gal--Col--Heb where ceremonial is mentioned?
 
TrevorL said:
Salvation does not come by means of obedience to law. Paul quotes the 10th Commandment as an illustration as to what he considers the Law. Salvation comes by belief of the Gospel. SDAs like to split the Law into moral law and ceremonial law, and they include the Sabbath on the side of the moral law.
Click to expand...
Salvation does come by means of obedience to law. Remember its Christ who works in the new creature both to reveal his will and empower a dying creation to perform it to His good pleasure. It is God who can make our hearts soft. .

It is the better thing that acompanies salvation as something we cannot workout if not yoked with Christ. ..(Philippians 2:13)

Salvation the unmerited gift of God. . don't leave earth without it.

Hebrew 6:9-11 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
 
TrevorL said:
Salvation does not come by means of obedience to law. Paul quotes the 10th Commandment as an illustration as to what he considers the Law. Salvation comes by belief of the Gospel. SDAs like to split the Law into moral law and ceremonial law, and they include the Sabbath on the side of the moral law.
Click to expand...
Yes the word sabbath is rest .It is not a time senititive .

Whenever we hear the voice of God and do not harden our heart we enter the eternal rest .

Many assume that the 10 commandment. (Ten is used to represent all) . That they are all moral . But when looking at them none other except for the sabbath have a reasoning behind them which is different from one to another as a parable or comparison

In Exodus he uses creation .

Exodus 20: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

In Deuteronomy the deliverance from Egypt signifies the world . again the word sabbath is not a time sensitive word. The SDA attempts to make it time senititive as some sort of sign gift .I did it. Therefore it proves (self edification)

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

None of the other laws are cerinimoinal as shadows
 
TrevorL said:
.

I consider Romans chapters 6-8 sufficient. If we need to obey the law of the Sabbath, do we need to keep the law concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, which the Jews in the land have recently kept for the seven days? Which side of the fence is the law concerning the seething of a young goat in its mother's milk? In most Jewish restaurants in order to strictly avoid this, you cannot have a meat product with a milk product on the menu. On the SDA side, my SDA workmate stated that SDAs argue whether it is lawful to clean your car windscreen on the Sabbath before going to Church. This is what is discussed at the Australian centre where EGW lived for some years and her cottage is preserved.

Kid regards
Trevor
Click to expand...

I would offer a remnant of the Jews (not all Israel is born again Israel) They added to the the fast making it a works righteousness .I did it, it proves it .

Isaiah 58 is a commentary against what is called fist of wickedness, self edification as a false hope of being heard on high.

3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high

It was not designed to do no work but as a two day work one to prepare the other to eat the second day was a day set aside to share the bread manna with those who had none as those cast out. and when seeing those naked to cloth them and not hide from your own relatives .(the gospel in a nutshell

Isaiah 58:6-8 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.

One person did not prepare the manna on the first day he gathers stick to cook it on the day it was to be eatien and shared

.He was used as a example of those that thought the self affliction of there own soul as self righteousness .

Number 15 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.(and not the day of preparation) And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

The new testament the same kind of idea of adding to the ceremonial law with the oral traditons of the father Like the Sabbath day walk . .the true fast allowed three meals on the Sabbath to be shared with the less fortunate you could say street people. Again a picture of the gospel .

The translators in all but one place (Mathew 28 :1) with the Youngs literal changed the word sabbath .Again a non-time sensitive word into "week" and not rest used 11 times . A word that was not even coined in the Greek till much later, Destroying the true meaning "rest" ,

The self righteous Pharisees bragging he ate only two meals of the three that were allowed and paid his tithes on the same day set aside. .

Again the translation using the word "week" destroys the gospel rest.

Luke 18:11-13King James Version11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, (REST) I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

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