Did Matthew Accurately Quote Jesus saying "Ekklesia?"

[RedFan]

The word ἐκκλησίᾳ -- used in the LXX to refer to the assembly of Israel – is almost always translated in the NT as “church.” It literally means “assembly” or “gathering,” typically of a governing body (like a legislature or an official group of decisionmakers) culled out from among the general populace (hence the “ἐκ” in ἐκκλησίᾳ). After Pentecost the word gained currency as referring to either the entire body of Christian believers or to a particular congregation in a particular locale – and we see it used that way in Acts and in Paul’s letters many times.

Matthew mentions the word “church” (ἐκκλησίᾳ) twice, in Matt. 16:18 and Matt. 18:17. No other appearance of the word is found in any other gospel. Is it likely that Jesus would have used such a word to describe an assembly of the faithful, in either verse (16:18 as a reference to the Church writ large, 18:17 as a reference to a given congregation)? Such pre-Pentecost usage by Jesus is hard for me to imagine, as is his listeners understanding it that way. Once Christianity was established, of course, the word took on all the trappings we now associate with it – and in Matt. 16:18 this understanding became a staple of Papal legitimacy on the theory that Peter was the man upon whom Jesus would build his Church. (I would argue that if a man were to be the foundation of the Church, Paul fits the bill far better than Peter – but I digress.)

Did Matthew take a bit of license here?

 

[O'Darby III]

All the Gospel authors took more than a bit of license. As my old seminary professor pointed out, Jesus would hardly have said "tale up your cross and follow me" before he had been crucified. The Gospels are, I believe, sincere but agenda-driven efforts to piece together a life of Jesus that would resonate with the intended audience - in the case of Matthew, a Jewish audience that needed to be convinced Jesus was the Messiah. There were certainly oral traditions, but imagine trying to craft a biography of JFK today if there were no historical record other than oral tradition; I suspect we'd see a lot of agenda-driven "things he didn't actually say."

Jesus would have been speaking Aramaic, not Greek. All we have is Matthew's translation (or perhaps invention) of whatever Jesus actually said in Aramaic. So I guess the question would be what was the Aramaic equivalent of "ekklesia" and what connotations dd it have? Or, if Matthew invented the quote, what caused him to choose this particular Greek term - why not, for example, "my synagogue" or "my temple" or even "my kingdom" since the intended audience was Jewish?

 

[RedFan]

Certainly a possibility. The Catholics are going to be all over you, though.

 

[O'Darby III]

Certainly a possibility. The Catholics are going to be all over you, though.

I will appease them with my vast knowledge of the Shroud of Turin and Blessed Virgin Mary apparitions, two of my pet interests which I believe are in some sense the Real Deal. Anyone who thinks the Shroud has been explained away or that apparitions such as those at Fatima and Zeitoun are nonsense simply hasn't done his or her homework. By the time I'm through pontificating on the Shroud and BVM, the Catholics will be eating out of my hand.

 

[SteVen]

Did Matthew take a bit of license here?

Good topic.
That's interesting. Have you had more time to process this?
What are you concluding now?

]

 

[SteVen]

All the Gospel authors took more than a bit of license. As my old seminary professor pointed out, Jesus would hardly have said "tale up your cross and follow me" before he had been crucified.

That's interesting. I assumed Jesus knew where He was headed.
In the Garden of Gethsemane He asked if the "cup" would be "taken away"?
Seems that he knew. Why sweat great drops of blood?

=

 

[RedFan]

Good topic.
That's interesting. Have you had more time to process this?
What are you concluding now?

]

I'm leaning toward the author (I don't necessarily say it was Matthew the apostle) mistranslating whatever Aramaic or Hebrew word Jesus may have used -- maybe לעדת

 

[SteVen]

I'm leaning toward the author (I don't necessarily say it was Matthew the apostle) mistranslating whatever Aramaic or Hebrew word Jesus may have used -- maybe לעדת

One thing to bear in mind was that Jesus often (?) quoted from the Septuagint.
Which is a Greek translation of the OT. Link lists the verses.

In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint?

Some Protestants challenge Catholics to show where Jesus quotes the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Click here to learn more.

www.catholic.com

]

 

[RedFan]

One thing to bear in mind was that Jesus often (?) quoted from the Septuagint.
Which is a Greek translation of the OT. Link lists the verses.

In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint?

Some Protestants challenge Catholics to show where Jesus quotes the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Click here to learn more.

www.catholic.com

]

He would need to be speaking Greek to do so. I doubt that happened very much. So once again, a gospel author writing in Greek can use a bit of license in order to give his Greek readership a more familiar hook (to the LXX) when rendering Jesus's actual Aramaic or Hebrew words.

 

[O'Darby III]

One thing to bear in mind was that Jesus often (?) quoted from the Septuagint.
Which is a Greek translation of the OT. Link lists the verses.

In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint?

Some Protestants challenge Catholics to show where Jesus quotes the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Click here to learn more.

www.catholic.com

]

Wow, it would never have occurred to me that Jesus would have quoted from the Septuagint. It was in wide use, but I find it hard to believe Jesus would have been using and quoting a Greek text when the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate the Hebrew scriptures were available in Aramaic as well as Hebrew. The article you linked suggests the NT quotations of Jesus that appear to be from the Septuagint may be because the NT authors used the Septuagint, not because Jesus did. And, of course, the passage Redfan is talking about is what Jesus supposedly said, not what he was quoting from the scriptures.

 

[SteVen]

Wow, it would never have occurred to me that Jesus would have quoted from the Septuagint. It was in wide use, but I find it hard to believe Jesus would have been using and quoting a Greek text when the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate the Hebrew scriptures were available in Aramaic as well as Hebrew. The article you linked suggests the NT quotations of Jesus that appear to be from the Septuagint may be because the NT authors used the Septuagint, not because Jesus did. And, of course, the passage Redfan is talking about is what Jesus supposedly said, not what he was quoting from the scriptures.

I always wondered why the NT quotes of the OT didn't match.
Bible footnotes sometimes indicate that it was a quote from the Septuagint.

So... it begs the question, was Jesus speaking in Greek instead of Aramaic when preaching? Or both?

] cc: @RedFan

 

[RedFan]

Wow, it would never have occurred to me that Jesus would have quoted from the Septuagint. It was in wide use, but I find it hard to believe Jesus would have been using and quoting a Greek text when the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate the Hebrew scriptures were available in Aramaic as well as Hebrew. The article you linked suggests the NT quotations of Jesus that appear to be from the Septuagint may be because the NT authors used the Septuagint, not because Jesus did. And, of course, the passage Redfan is talking about is what Jesus supposedly said, not what he was quoting from the scriptures.

I'm wondering how fluent Jesus was in Greek. His exchanges with Pilate -- and all for gospels relate such exchange -- may well have been in Greek. I doubt Pilate was fluent in Aramaic. Far easier for a Latin speaker to master Greek than any semitic language.