• Welcome to White Horse Forums. We ask that you would please take a moment to introduce yourself in the New Members section. Tell us a bit about yourself and dive in!

Defining the godhead - an open discussion on Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Trinitarianism

Mattathias said:
What do you make of all this talk about Yahweh being the devil?
Click to expand...

RedFan said:
I think it's hogwash.
Click to expand...

Mattathias said:
It’s Gnosticism.
Click to expand...

I'm happy to discuss gnostic beliefs, but demand an honest conversation. Gnostics don't hold the idea that Yahweh is the devil. They believe Yahweh to be a lessor spiritual being (an elohim) who isn't necessarily evil at all, rather he is arrogant, jealous, prideful, self-indulgent, praise-seeking, war-mongering, murderous, worship demanding, sacrfice-requiring....and so on. You know? All those things that we see in the Old Testament accounts, that we scratch our heads over and think... that's not my forgiving, merciful and loving Father.... not even close.
 
SteVen said:
Right.
It says "worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth" which excludes a false claim about the verse. (nothing about Yahweh)

]
Click to expand...

The Father is Yahweh. That’s not a false claim about the verse.

Jesus worships Yahweh and instructs his disciples to do the same.
 
Mr E said:
You've ignored the fact that your text relies on the pretext that Moses provides.
Click to expand...
Appeal to Strawman. No, it doesn’t! I’ve repeatedly showed how Isaiah and Joel confirmed.

Even if I rely on Moses alone, the word if God stands as true.
 
Wrangler said:
Appeal to Strawman. No, it doesn’t! I’ve repeatedly showed how Isaiah and Joel confirmed.

Even if I rely on Moses alone, the word if God stands as true.
Click to expand...

No… Moses states that “God demands to be called I Am (Yahweh) throughout all generations, so then it shouldn’t surprise you that having established this as “the law” all those prophets who followed after, obeyed the law.
 
RedFan said:
is silent on the ban against worship of anyone else.
Click to expand...
This is one of the last refuge's of IDOLATRY, supposing any verse that does not have "only" is open to dualism, thereby side stepping the mutual exclusivity law of logic.

Consider the statement, "He took the book." Even though 'he and only he' is not part of the text, it does not change the logic of the statement. In other words, supposing "only" is required for the statement to only refer to one single entity, "he" is unnecessary. Likewise,

RedFan said:
I wont argue with you about who true worshippers exclusively worship -- but ... is silent on the ban against worship of anyone else.
Click to expand...
You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You won't argue, then argue from silence AS IF banning worship of anyone else is required to be stated, GIVEN true worshippers exclusively worship the Father. Of course, any other worship is false and this explains the 1st and 2nd Commandments.
 
RedFan said:
Cat is a species, not an animal's name. Oh wait, in Breakfast at Tiffany's Audrey Hepburn's character named her cat "Cat." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Yup, reliance on word play. If you look in the dictionary, you will find "cat" is a common noun. Why rely on abuse of language? Because your IDOLATRY cannot be supported any other way.

"God" is a common noun. Yet, Christian imbues this plus other words, like "I am", son and father and word as though they were proper nouns and claims of deity.
 
Wrangler said:
Yup, reliance on word play. If you look in the dictionary, you will find "cat" is a common noun. Why rely on abuse of language? Because your IDOLATRY cannot be supported any other way.

"God" is a common noun. Yet, Christian imbues this plus other words, like "I am", son and father and word as though they were proper nouns and claims of deity.
Click to expand...
Everyone agrees that "god" is a common noun. By convention, English speakers (and others) capitalize it when writing it referring to the Deity, but even then, we don't usually think of it as a "name" for the Deity, or as a proper noun rather than a common one. Whether written or spoken, a "name" is usually intended to single out an individual from the pack, even if that name is not unique to the individual (e.g., my first name, which happens to be Frank).

But "I am" was told to Moses as God's unique name, and anyone communicating with a known monotheist who is aware of that Mosaic instruction would be a blasphemer if he claimed that name for himself -- unless, of course, he really was God.
 
RedFan said:
But "I am" was told to Moses as God's unique name, and anyone communicating with a known monotheist who is aware of that Mosaic instruction would be a blasphemer if he claimed that name for himself -- unless, of course, he really was God.
Click to expand...
This scripture cannot be understood any other way. IMHO
Unless a word is missing. "I am!" - I am what?

John 8:58 NET
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth,[a] before Abraham came into existence,[b] I am!”[c]

]
 
SteVen said:
This scripture cannot be understood any other way. IMHO
Unless a word is missing. "I am!" - I am what?

John 8:58 NET
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth,[a] before Abraham came into existence,[b] I am!”[c]

]
Click to expand...

It is perfectly acceptable to understand the I Am as the He Is. In one sense it is used when referring to oneself and in another when referring to someone other than yourself.
 
Mr E said:
It is perfectly acceptable to understand the I Am as the He Is. In one sense it is used when referring to oneself and in another when referring to someone other than yourself.
Click to expand...
That would be construing the name as descriptive rather than merely nominative.
 
RedFan said:
but even then, we don't usually think of it as a "name" for the Deity,
Click to expand...
This is not true in practice. If it were, calling our Father, our God, by his name YHWH would be common practice.
RedFan said:
But "I am" was told to Moses as God's unique name
Click to expand...
Never does God say my name is I am! "I am" is not a name but a common expression and the verse in questions does not assert "I am" is a name.

I've explained this before but not sure if you read it. Many attempt to impose doctrine into common language usage. Suppose you're at a dinner party and ask someone what he does for a living. He could respond with "I'm between jobs right now." Everyone knows that his job is NOT "between jobs right now." In the next sentence, he might say what his career is, what he does for a living.

This is LANGUAGE USAGE. People often interject commentary and do not directly answer questions as if they are on trial.

Another example of such language usage. You're at a dinner party and ask someone if she is married. She might respond with, "I'm getting divorced or engaged or even widowed. Such transitionary realities make the exchange not so clear cut but the transition is so important that the one questioned feels it important to state this first.

This is precisely what happened. Moses asked YHWH what his name is. God did not immediately give his name but what is unique about him; that he is eternal. No other God known was thought of as eternal. God never said "I am" - that is a bad translation. YHHW said that he is eternal in EX 3:14.

Like my example of language usage, in the very next sentence, God said his name was YHWH. We know this because he used the word name in EX 3:15.

13Then Moses said to God, “Behold, if I go to the children of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I tell them?”
14And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be] (“Eternal One” is derived from the Hebrew word meaning, “I am.”),” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’”
15Furthermore, God said to Moses, “Tell the children of Israel this: ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Ex 3:13-15 CJB (VOICE study note)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top