Why Christ's Deity is important

[Wrangler]

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood.

Circular Reasoning. This invokes word play; a semantic argument parsing synonyms. There is no ‘Godhead’ in Scripture. A Being is synonymous with person.

Scripture tells us exclusively that God the Father. Jesus tells us God the Father is the only true God. Not sure why that is not good enough.

 

[RedFan]

The claim the inherent contradiction of the trinity can be explained through context is false.

Well, we will agree to disagree on this point. I don't want to wrangle with a Wrangler!

 

[Mattathias]

Using philosophical terms which neither Jesus nor the Apostles nor anyone else in scripture uses to describe God produces a description of God which neither matches with nor is compatible with the God of Jesus.

There is no God besides the one whom Jesus explicitly states is his God and the God of his disciples.

Trinitarians are welcome to dispute my assertion. It’s the main argument which prevents me from returning to trinitarianism or turning to another deity.

I’ve made an appeal to trinitarians. I’m making now the same appeal to non-trinitarians.

 

[Wrangler]

Here's how we might approximate it:

Consider the visible spectrum of light waves at frequencies between the limits of infrared and ultraviolet. The colors are distinct. White is not on the spectrum, because white is not a “color” at all. Rather, white light is produced by combining the colors of the spectrum.

“Colors” (plural) is analogous to the anti-Biblical notion of more than one God.

No matter how you try to explain it through complexity, 3 is not 1 and one is not 3 AND this is not in Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

Each of the three “persons” in one God is not a person in the ordinary sense of denoting a distinct individual, but a persona in the sense of a portrayal or a posture, an outward-looking manifestation of an inward unity.

Again, invented from pure cloth, found nowhere in Scripture.

 

[Mattathias]

Is it impossible to read scripture (the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament) and have for your God only and none other than the one God whom Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of the one God, says is his God and the God of his disciples?

If it is impossible, then why is it impossible?

 

[Wrangler]

We encounter Father, or Son

Not in Scripture. When Stephen was martyred, he said he saw Jesus at the right hand of God. He was relating to both, God AND Jesus.

Many verses connect Jesus AND God (not the Father, but God in wholeness, in his unitarian nature).

 

[Wrangler]

In that very unity lies their shared essence.

Another falsehood required in attempting to rationalize a contradiction. God is spirit who cannot die. Jesus is flesh who died.

The essence of God and Jesus contradict - even though they relate as a cup (Jesus) to the contents (God).

 

[RedFan]

“Colors” (plural) is analogous to the anti-Biblical notion of more than one God.

"Colors" (plural) is analogous to more than one hypostasis. Not more than one God.

No matter how you try to explain it through complexity, 3 is not 1 and one is not 3 AND this is not in Scripture

3 is not 1 and 1 is not 3, I agree. But three things can form a relation to produce a single thing, as primary colors and as musical notes and as sides of a pyramid.

And I agree that the Trinity is not in Scripture. You won’t find me underscoring supposed proof-texts, because I’m convinced that none truly qualify as “proof.” From the standpoint of word meaning, Scripture is maddeningly equivocal. Arguments over Hebrew words ending in “-im” as establishing plurality; over how kurios or adonai are to be interpreted as a referent; over proper rendering of phrases like theos en ho logos from a language with no indefinite article and which uses case rather than word order to convey meaning – all of these arguments are, in my view, ultimately unpersuasive, and while each of these have their standard bearers, it’s obvious that nothing will ever be decided in this way. Even where word meaning is clear, intention of the author often is not; we sometimes need to pay mind to the historical context, the intended audience and the purpose of writing in order to distill that intention. So I don't find Scripture as either proving or disproving the Trinitarian position.

 

[Wrangler]

We can never fully comprehend the divine “stuff” of God

Appeal to Ignorance. One of the most common tactics of trinitarian apologists is to claim a mystery is beyond human understanding AS IF that supports the claim.

It’s not that contradictions are beyond our capacity to understand. It’s nonsense.

 

[RedFan]

Appeal to Ignorance. One of the most common tactics of trinitarian apologists is to claim a mystery is beyond human understanding AS IF that supports the claim.

It’s not that contradictions are beyond our capacity to understand. It’s nonsense.

Not even a Unitarian can describe the divine "stuff." The substance or essence of God is one particular mystery that neither you nor I can explain. And if you've read my diatribe carefully, that's the only "mystery beyond human understanding" I mention.

 

[Wrangler]

But three things can form a relation to produce a single thing, as primary colors and as musical notes and as sides of a pyramid.

Another illogical tactic is to change the reference. God is a person, meaning one person. There is no way around it.

Musical notes is different from music, which is not a single thing. Contrasting notes of music is absurd. The sound of music is air vibrating. The thing, the one thing is air vibrating. The one substance is water no matter it's phase.

There is a basic difference between a thing and the relationship of that thing to other things. These relationship are not required to be 3.

The trinitarian notion the YHWH changes depending on who he faces is an idea made from whole cloth. Nothing in the Bible says that AND I've shown how people "see" or hear both YHWH and his son.