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Born again - Before, or After, the Call?

SteVen

SteVen

Active member
"Man chooses that which is according to his nature,
and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that
which is divine and spiritual, a new nature must be imparted to him;
in other words, he must be born again.

Let me appeal to the actual experience of the reader of these lines.
Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ?
There was. Since then you have come to Him.

Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Ps 115:1)?
Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit
brought you from unwillingness to willingness?" - J. Preston Eby

Source: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
 
SteVen said:
"Man chooses that which is according to his nature,
and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that
which is divine and spiritual, a new nature must be imparted to him;
in other words, he must be born again.

Let me appeal to the actual experience of the reader of these lines.
Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ?
There was. Since then you have come to Him.

Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Ps 115:1)?
Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit
brought you from unwillingness to willingness?" - J. Preston Eby

Source: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
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Oof... sorry. Eby gives me the heebie jeebies. My extended family farmed in Southern Saskatchewan-- Saskatoon, to be exact-- and they considered Eby to be cult-like..... Joel's Army and the manifestation of the sons of God appearing among us. My uncles would say-- Pentacostal whack-nuts, all caught up in what they called the latter rains.
 
Mr E said:
Oof... sorry. Eby gives me the heebie jeebies. My extended family farmed in Southern Saskatchewan-- Saskatoon, to be exact-- and they considered Eby to be cult-like..... Joel's Army and the manifestation of the sons of God appearing among us. My uncles would say-- Pentacostal whack-nuts, all caught up in what they called the latter rains.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with everything he says.
But he was a major resource for understanding Christian Universalism (UR) for me.

]
 
SteVen said:
"Man chooses that which is according to his nature,
and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that
which is divine and spiritual, a new nature must be imparted to him;
in other words, he must be born again.

Let me appeal to the actual experience of the reader of these lines.
Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ?
There was. Since then you have come to Him.

Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Ps 115:1)?
Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit
brought you from unwillingness to willingness?" - J. Preston Eby

Source: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
Click to expand...

You're really lighting the place up aren't you, Buddy? :)

I've never really understood the before-or-after controversy and the related "Romans 7&8 men" arguments.

(I find it interesting that 1 John itself debunks the extreme, radical holiness/sinlessness fringe's assertions, derived largely from the same epistle.)

It seems to me that Christ's words in John 3:8 go a long way toward clear this up, although I haven't always felt this way.

John 3:8 — The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


(I like to put an "e" on the end of "born" in that verse. At my age, I feel that for me to pretend there was some point at which I finally "got it" would be preposterous.)

There was a time when I thought that God Himself, or recording angels, were sitting anticipatingly with checklists waiting for us to prompt them to tick all the boxes in the correct order, as if God could not preserve our breath until He has had time or opportunity to perfect us.

However, I can't be sure whether I've progressed or regressed in my understanding of regeneration, etc. I'll have to trust in His mercy as will all others, I'm very glad to say.

It's not that I don't believe God has a way in which to walk that would afford us far less heartache than we do so stubbornly insist upon bearing.

In fact, I think I could cite several passages, especially from the New Testament, that suggest quite orderly progressions of spiritual growth.

But, behold, we are a stiff-necked people, and prefer to do things out own way.

.
 
Ol' Barn said:
(I like to put an "e" on the end of "born" in that verse. At my age, I feel that for me to pretend there was some point at which I finally "got it" would be preposterous.)
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Love that!

Ol' Barn said:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Click to expand...

1715025351694.png
 
Ol' Barn said:
You're really lighting the place up aren't you, Buddy? :)
Click to expand...
Danger is my middle name. - LOL

I think born again is the the wrong term, but certainly God draws us to himself.
And I don;t think that drawing gives us any special spiritual insights.
Spiritual insights are hard-won, not hard-wired.

I like the borne along idea though. (might be a topic in there)

1715027207677.jpeg

]
 
SteVen said:
Danger is my middle name. - LOL

I think born again is the the wrong term, but certainly God draws us to himself.
And I don;t think that drawing gives us any special spiritual insights.
Spiritual insights are hard-won, not hard-wired.

I like the borne along idea though. (might be a topic in there)

View attachment 2303

]
Click to expand...

When it comes to navigating theology, we should all strive to set a better sail, and catch the wind.
 
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