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Making peace with what YOU believe

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I've been inspired (divinely? :)) to further articulate my thinking – if only for my own benefit – by a recent exchange with @SteVen . He seems to me to be nobly struggling (1) to preserve some notion of himself as a solid Christian while (2) recognizing – viscerally, intuitively and even consciously – that he simply can't accept key aspects of conventional Christian doctrine.

This is indeed a noble struggle. It's exactly what James Fowler described in Stages of Faith.

It's surprising (to me) and unfortunate (to me) that more believers don't ask the questions SteVen is asking and experience the "crisis" he is experiencing. I'm frankly astonished they don't.

I regularly read and listen to some extremely influential Christian leaders and apologists. I'm agog at the stuff that comes out of their mouths. Do they really believe the stuff they say do? Do they really believe this is what the creator of the universe could possibly be like and that this could possibly be his plan for his creation? Do they really view themselves as fully human while spouting these inhuman beliefs?

Even though I started out with Campus Crusade for Christ and the Southern Baptist Church, I truly don't think I'd been a Christian more than a few days before realizing – and eventually accepting – that I could never believe this stuff. At least never believe it in the sense of "Yes, this is Ontologically True. This is the Way Things Really Are." Believe it in some vague, metaphorical sense, perhaps, but even that eventually fell by the wayside.

To somewhat revisit my first blog entry, let's consider the following as a portrait of Ontological Reality, of the Way Things Really Are:
  • An omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omni-yadayada God creates a host of heavenly beings having high intelligence and free will.

  • Even though these beings are in direct contact with God and are living in his kingdom, a significant number rebel against him. What the heck?
  • Even though this seemingly should be a rather large clue to God as to how things would go, he nevertheless creates humans with free will.

  • Even though he desires that all humans be saved, he allows Satan to have direct access to the very first couple and to beguile innocent doofus Eve, who in turn persuades innocent doofus Adam to eat the forbidden fruit.

  • Even though the first couple has a direct personal relationship with God, they disobey his simple command not to eat the forbidden fruit. What the heck?

  • Even though this result was inevitable and the first couple were innocent doofuses (doofusi?), God reacts in a veritable fury, human nature is forever corrupted and all of creation is plunged into chaos. What the heck?
  • Human life now proceeds through the centuries – but wait, while desiring that all be saved God nevertheless allows Satan and his minions to roam the earth, beguiling and deceiving humans who already have an inherited propensity toward evil. What the heck?
  • All of the above is why human and animal life comprises endless suffering, disappointment, tragedy, disease, cruelty, war and natural disasters – even though God is loving and just and desires that all be saved. What the heck?

  • God does, however, sometimes intervene providentially with answered prayers, miracles, fortuitous circumstances and whatnot; alas, this is entirely hit-and-miss and is just as likely to occur to Hindus or atheists as to devout and faithful Christians. What the heck?
  • The entire mess is God's plan for the glorification of himself and his Son as he expresses his love by making salvation available to anyone who turns to him notwithstanding the beguiling and deceptive efforts of Satan and his minions and notwithstanding the likelihood that billions will never hear of this offer or have any realistic opportunity to accept it. What the heck?

  • Despite all of the above, God's perfect justice will eventually express itself as those who fail to turn to him are condemned to eternal torment. WHAT THE HECK?
Many insist they can believe all this. It makes sense to them, they say. It seems consistent to them with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, just and loving Heavenly Father.

To even pretend to believe this, I'd have to live in such a state of cognitive dissonance that I'd surely be in a straitjacket by now. Even as a crude metaphor, I find it intuitively unbelievable and unsatisfying.

Apart from some deep fear that it just might be true and that eternal torment just might be a possibility, why would anyone even pretend to believe this?

Now compare an alternative. This or something like it is the alternative suggested by Near Death experiences, experiences of Cosmic Consciousness and other mystical experiences, reincarnation studies, and many of the oldest religious and philosophical traditions:
  • There is indeed a creative intelligence behind our reality.

  • There is indeed an overall plan to the creation.

  • That plan is as much for the creative intelligence's enjoyment as for the fulfillment of the creation.

  • The plan is basically for life to express itself and become all that it can be.

  • As the highest form of earthly life, humans are capable of eventually achieving a genuine relationship with and communion with the creative intelligence.

  • Everything is unfolding exactly as it must. It all works together to achieve the collective fulfillment of all that life can become and all that humans can become.

  • This can be achieved only in an environment in which life and free will are allowed free rein to encounter and deal with the full spectrum of possibilities of good and evil.

  • The providential involvement of the creative intelligence is creative, exercised as necessary to help individuals or societies to become all they can become and prevent the process from being short-circuited.

  • In the case of individuals and perhaps animals, reincarnation allows for the full spectrum of possibilities to be experienced and the maximum of growth and maturing to be achieved.
Is this a neat-and-tidy belief system? No. There are still great mysteries. Would I call it Christianity? No, it's just too far outside the norm. Do I insist it's Ontologically True? Of course not. But it is - or so it seems to me - more consistent with life as we actually experience it and to have at least some claim to being evidence-based. At least to me, it doesn't seem to be flat-out unbelievable or silly. Somehow, as my personal hero Charles Earnest Essert suggested in Secret Splendor, there is cosmic Humor, Laughter and Joy underlying it all - ALL OF IT - which is again a far cry from the dark doctrines of conventional Christianity.

One alternative, of course, is naturalistic atheism: There is no God, there is no meaning or purpose, and all religious beliefs are just projections and wishful thinking. This is indeed a possibility – but, as SteVen suggested about himself, my own experiences point in the direction of a supernatural realm, a creative, providential intelligence and the survival of consciousness. Naturalistic atheism almost seems to me to be more in the vein of "wishful thinking," odd as this may seem.

So this was my suggestion to SteVen and would be my suggestion to anyone else who is troubled by the doctrines and dogma of established religion: Decide what you really believe and are capable of believing. If it isn't Christianity, so be it. If it doesn't fit neatly into any established religion, so be it. Don't cling to any label, any set of "required" beliefs, if you sincerely believe something different.

As I suggested to SteVen, one can have a very robust and fulfilling set of religious convictions, even ones in which Jesus plays a central role, while allowing the fundamentally unbelievable doctrines of Christianity (or Hinduism or whatever) to fall by the wayside. It's very liberating and, I believe, very psychologically healthy.
As I've said previously, no one ever – ever – evolves and matures from Fowler's Stage 5 or 6 back to Stage 2 or 3. It just doesn't happen. The evolving and maturing are always – always – in the direction of a more broad and flexible, open-ended faith that acknowledges and accepts mystery, ambiguity and uncertainty.

The late Daniel N. Robinson, who was the instructor in the 60-part Great Courses series on "Great Ideas In Philosophy," was a massive intellectual who understood every nuance of philosophy and psychology. When I first heard his presentation some 20 years ago and picked up on what I thought seemed to be an unlikely bit of spirituality in such a heavyweight academic, I wrote to him about his personal beliefs. He responded "I was raised a Roman Catholic and suppose I'll always be part of that tradition."

This is quite different from someone like Robinson thinking Roman Catholicism is Ontologically True. This is someone who recognizes and accepts the mystery and ambiguity of it all and simply chooses to express his spirituality within a particular tradition. The same was true of my old Philosophy of Religion professor – Dr. William F. Nietmann. He had a field day making fools of us simple-minded Campus Crusaders. The class was astonished to learn that this seemingly hardboiled unbeliever actually attended the local Methodist church and sang in the choir. ("Oh, yes, I'm one of the Golden Voices of Israel," he sheepishly admitted when confronted.) His "unbelief" was not unbelief at all but merely a challenge to our mindless "Christian" prattle.

That would be my advice to someone like SteVen: Decide what you actually believe and are capable of believing. Forget about labels, doctrine and dogma. If you choose to express your spirituality in a church environmen or faith community, honestly acknowledge to yourself what you are doing and be at peace with it. Give up the struggle of trying to pound the square pegs of what you actually believe into the round holes of what you're "supposed" to believe (or "must" believe) as a member of that church or community. And, of course, don't try to persuade others that they are wrong in what they believe or that what you believe is somehow the "real" Christianity if it's fundamentally at odds with what Christianity has been understood to be for the past 2,000 years.

Or perhaps go the O'Darby route and start your very own "Little Church of What O'Darby Believes." :D
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@Joker asked me what keeps me in orthodox Christianity. See my response in post #15.


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To summarize, it would hurt my family (Mom and wife) to leave the church. And honestly, I'm not miserable there. Still much to gain. There is still a Body of Christ of which my church is a part. I still hold to enough orthodox theology to manage a healthy relationship with the church. It has been decades since I have had a Pastor with whom I am in 100% agreement with, Ever since I came of age really. I read and studied the Bible on my own and drew my own conclusions. The church may be orthodox, but I am not.

I went on a whole-Summer missions trip when I was a young man. Had planned to return to the mission field with my wife. (never happened) I was VERY evangelical at that time. I was elected as an Elder in my home church. (I'll never do that again. Learned my lesson) I taught adult classes for years. I was in prison ministry. Helped a door-to-door evangelistic team start a new church in an apartment complex. I have had a very engaging life in church. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. And I think God wants me to stay where I am. Regardless, or because of, my personal theology. There are still people that need encouragement and prayer. God has not abandoned this particular church, neither should I.

]
 
To summarize, it would hurt my family (Mom and wife) to leave the church. And honestly, I'm not miserable there. Still much to gain. There is still a Body of Christ of which my church is a part. I still hold to enough orthodox theology to manage a healthy relationship with the church. It has been decades since I have had a Pastor with whom I am in 100% agreement with, Ever since I came of age really. I read and studied the Bible on my own and drew my own conclusions. The church may be orthodox, but I am not.

I went on a whole-Summer missions trip when I was a young man. Had planned to return to the mission field with my wife. (never happened) I was VERY evangelical at that time. I was elected as an Elder in my home church. (I'll never do that again. Learned my lesson) I taught adult classes for years. I was in prison ministry. Helped a door-to-door evangelistic team start a new church in an apartment complex. I have had a very engaging life in church. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. And I think God wants me to stay where I am. Regardless, or because of, my personal theology. There are still people that need encouragement and prayer. God has not abandoned this particular church, neither should I.

]
As I suggest in post #16 in the thread you linked, it would be interesting to hear you articulate:

1. What precisely is the Universalism in which you believe - why is it necessary and how does it work?

2. What are the other orthodox Christian doctrines that caused you to feel the "mental necessity" for Universalism?

I've now read quite a bit of the serious Universalist literature. I was struck by the notion that Universalism seems to me mostly a way to put a Happy Face on the deeper reality that "I really don't believe in the God of orthodox Christianity, the basic theological framework of orthodox Christianity or some of the core doctrines of orthodox Christianity" - i.e., it's mostly a way to keep a foot in Christianity without really being a Christian.
 
1. What precisely is the Universalism in which you believe - why is it necessary and how does it work?
Not much different than what you believe, in that all will work out in the end.

There will be an age of restoration in which we will all answer for our lives. Not just individuals, but nations and leaders. We will receive the correction and restoration we need before moving on to other ages in the future.

2. What are the other orthodox Christian doctrines that caused you to feel the "mental necessity" for Universalism?
I've always been uncomfortable with the hell doctrine. It was more of a family event that put me over the edge. A sister in law said she couldn't believe in a God who sent people to hell. I parroted all the apologetics to my mother-in-law, but this left me empty and searching. Another forum brother told me that he didn't believe in hell. I asked him to explain. Which pointed me to a topic and another brother. I wanted answers, so I put those two through hell myself to get there. Once I started reading UR authors things feel into place. Never did finish the books. TLDR

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#1

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

]
 
I've always been uncomfortable with the hell doctrine.
This to some extent illustrates what I'm talking about. Discomfort with the Hell doctrine can't exist in a vacuum. Discomfort with that doctrine is discomfort with the very nature of God as conventional Christianity posits him ... and with the entire plan of creation as conventional Christianity posits it ... and with what the biblical Jesus certainly seemed to teach and believe. "Universalism" ends up being almost a wholesale reinvention of Christianity - which begs the question "Then why call it Christianity at all?" It's impossible to honestly say "Oh, I'm a fully conventional Christian right up to the point of that icky Hell doctrine, which I simply replace with Universalism."

I made this point in an Amazon review of a book by Peter Enns, Curveball: When Your Faith Takes Turns You Never Saw Coming (or How I Stumbled and Tripped My Way to Finding a Bigger God. He repeatedly "rethinks" Christian doctrines in search of a more palatable Christianity. This is apparently true throughout all his books. My point was that I have no violent disagreement with his theology, but IT SIMPLY ISN'T CHRISTIAN and its dishonest to appropriate the label.
 
This to some extent illustrates what I'm talking about. Discomfort with the Hell doctrine can't exist in a vacuum. Discomfort with that doctrine is discomfort with the very nature of God as conventional Christianity posits him ... and with the entire plan of creation as conventional Christianity posits it ... and with what the biblical Jesus certainly seemed to teach and believe. "Universalism" ends up being almost a wholesale reinvention of Christianity - which begs the question "Then why call it Christianity at all?" It's impossible to honestly say "Oh, I'm a fully conventional Christian right up to the point of that icky Hell doctrine, which I simply replace with Universalism."
I avoided launching topics on UR here at White Horse because I thought you had all heard enough of that.

Apokatastasis/Universalism/UR is a part of the early church in the east. It's not a new invention. Therefore NOT "a wholesale reinvention of Christianity". The church in the west denied it and nearly wrote it out of the Bible with the deplorable mistranslation work. (grr...)


]
 
The Catholic (boo! hiss!) Encyclopedia is quite good on the subject of apokatastasis and its history: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm.

It's a doctrine that one can certainly "find in the Bible" by interpreting certain verses in a certain way but that is not the mainstream interpretation and never has been, and it does have implications for other doctrines like the nature of God.

I don't have a poodle in the fight because I don't see the creation in terms of a need for "salvation" or "restoration" as those terms are used in conventional Christianity. I see the creation from A to Z as being fully what the creative intelligence intended within the context of his/its purpose in creating. I see even the seemingly worst of us as serving a purpose within the plan and as helping accomplish what the plan was intended to accomplish. The plan (IMO) is an overall Plan for Humanity with humanity as a Collective Whole being its focus; individuals, good and bad, are like dots in a Pointillist painting.
 
I don't see the creation in terms of a need for "salvation" or "restoration" as those terms are used in conventional Christianity.
I think life provides wounds for all of us. Some more than others. And a restored relationship with the creator for those who need it. Probably all of us to some extent.

I see the age of restoration as an opportunity to have all our questions answered. It will require a whole age for each individual to be dealt with while everyone else looks on. (every idle word, thought, deed) Nothing hidden that will not be revealed and made right. IMHO

Even the angels will be judged. I think the last one on the stand will be Satan himself. God will forgive and restore him. The ultimate triumph of grace. (love your enemies)

]
 
I like all the What the heck? bullet points. (in red) Worth discussing, I think.

  • Even though the first couple has a direct personal relationship with God, they disobey his simple command not to eat the forbidden fruit. What the heck?

    The text in Genesis leads me to believe it was only Adam that had a relationship with God. Who told Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit? Adam was meeting with God in the cool of the day before Eve was created.
  • Even though this result was inevitable and the first couple were innocent doofuses (doofusi?), God reacts in a veritable fury, human nature is forever corrupted and all of creation is plunged into chaos. What the heck?

    Dofusi - LOL
    Seems clear to me that Adam did not understand the consequences of the transgression. And his relationship with Eve was clouding his judgment. He watched the whole thing unfold and didn't step in to stop it.

  • Human life now proceeds through the centuries – but wait, while desiring that all be saved God nevertheless allows Satan and his minions to roam the earth, beguiling and deceiving humans who already have an inherited propensity toward evil. What the heck?

    Yes. Humankind seems to have everything working against us.
  • All of the above is why human and animal life comprises endless suffering, disappointment, tragedy, disease, cruelty, war and natural disasters – even though God is loving and just and desires that all be saved. What the heck?

    Seems so unfair to be born into this.

  • God does, however, sometimes intervene providentially with answered prayers, miracles, fortuitous circumstances and whatnot; alas, this is entirely hit-and-miss and is just as likely to occur to Hindus or atheists as to devout and faithful Christians. What the heck?

    The blessing of rain falls on all of us. Too much and you have floods, too little you have drought. None at all, you have Arizona. - LOL
  • The entire mess is God's plan for the glorification of himself and his Son as he expresses his love by making salvation available to anyone who turns to him notwithstanding the beguiling and deceptive efforts of Satan and his minions and notwithstanding the likelihood that billions will never hear of this offer or have any realistic opportunity to accept it. What the heck?

    Universalism to the rescue. - LOL
  • Despite all of the above, God's perfect justice will eventually express itself as those who fail to turn to him are condemned to eternal torment. WHAT THE HECK?

    The icing on the worst cake imaginable. A penalty worse than the crucifixion Jesus endured.

    I agree that none of this makes much sense. The foolishness of the gospel?

    I have observed that according to the Bible, God likes a good story. (usually) The relief of salvation can only happen when the danger is threatening. Without loss, how would we know gain? Without pain, how would we know bliss? Without sorrow, how would we know joy. Seems we can't have one without the other.
]
 
I like all the What the heck? bullet points. (in red) Worth discussing, I think.

  • Even though the first couple has a direct personal relationship with God, they disobey his simple command not to eat the forbidden fruit. What the heck?

    The text in Genesis leads me to believe it was only Adam that had a relationship with God. Who told Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit? Adam was meeting with God in the cool of the day before Eve was created.
  • Even though this result was inevitable and the first couple were innocent doofuses (doofusi?), God reacts in a veritable fury, human nature is forever corrupted and all of creation is plunged into chaos. What the heck?

    Dofusi - LOL
    Seems clear to me that Adam did not understand the consequences of the transgression. And his relationship with Eve was clouding his judgment. He watched the whole thing unfold and didn't step in to stop it.
  • Human life now proceeds through the centuries – but wait, while desiring that all be saved God nevertheless allows Satan and his minions to roam the earth, beguiling and deceiving humans who already have an inherited propensity toward evil. What the heck?

    Yes. Humankind seems to have everything working against us.
  • All of the above is why human and animal life comprises endless suffering, disappointment, tragedy, disease, cruelty, war and natural disasters – even though God is loving and just and desires that all be saved. What the heck?

    Seems so unfair to be born into this.
  • God does, however, sometimes intervene providentially with answered prayers, miracles, fortuitous circumstances and whatnot; alas, this is entirely hit-and-miss and is just as likely to occur to Hindus or atheists as to devout and faithful Christians. What the heck?

    The blessing of rain falls on all of us. Too much and you have floods, too little you have drought. None at all, you have Arizona. - LOL
  • The entire mess is God's plan for the glorification of himself and his Son as he expresses his love by making salvation available to anyone who turns to him notwithstanding the beguiling and deceptive efforts of Satan and his minions and notwithstanding the likelihood that billions will never hear of this offer or have any realistic opportunity to accept it. What the heck?

    Universalism to the rescue. - LOL
  • Despite all of the above, God's perfect justice will eventually express itself as those who fail to turn to him are condemned to eternal torment. WHAT THE HECK?

    The icing on the worst cake imaginable. A penalty worse than the crucifixion Jesus endured.

    I agree that none of this makes much sense. The foolishness of the gospel?

    I have observed that according to the Bible, God likes a good story. (usually) The relief of salvation can only happen when the danger is threatening. Without loss, how would we know gain? Without pain, how would we know bliss? Without sorrow, how would we know joy. Seems we can't have one without the other.
]
Scholars date Genesis to the 6th or 5th century BC and the "primeval history" chapters to possibly as late as the 3rd.

My guess is that the authors of the primeval history portion were pious Jews who looked around themselves and said, "Oy vey, what is the MATTER with people? What is the MATTER with us? What is the MATTER with the animal kingdom and the whole chaotic mess? What on earth WENT WRONG and why can't we fix it?"

Their answers in the primeval history chapters, from Adam and Eve to the Tower of Babel and all the rest, are wonderfully clever. They may even have been divinely inspired. But I don't think they are literally true or that the authors themselves thought they were writing history.

They are a theological explanation, in terms understandable to people 2,500 years ago, of the deep mysteries of human existence.

So I can't really address my What the heck? bullets in terms of Adam and Eve as though they were real people or the account describes historical events. If the primeval history chapters were divinely inspired, I think the message is the broad one that there is a God behind all this, even though it may not look that way to us.

Even in the context of my thinking as described in the blog entry, I can see how it would be valuable for us to understand "Yes, I have placed you in a physically and morally challenging environment. It isn't, and isn't going to be, easy. You have free will and the challenge here is for you to use it wisely." Something like that.
 
Their answers in the primeval history chapters, from Adam and Eve to the Tower of Babel and all the rest, are wonderfully clever. They may even have been divinely inspired. But I don't think they are literally true or that the authors themselves thought they were writing history.
New Testament theology takes these stories seriously. The sin of Adam, our ancestor, has put us under the condemnation of the Fall of humankind. But... the second Adam (Christ) has/will redeem(ed) us from the Fall.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

]
 
New Testament theology takes these stories seriously.
"Seriously" and "literally" are two entirely different things, of course. I once heard William Lane Craig exclaim "NO serious scholar takes Genesis 1-11 literally!!!" as though the question were almost absurd, and I just confirmed that he considers the "mytho-historical" perspective to be far less problematical for Christianity. I couldn't find an actual poll of scholars, but I did find a reference on the Biblical Archaelogy Society site regarding the number of scholars who believe exactly what I described: Genesis 1-11 reflects ancient myths, not just Jewish ones, and is a 2,500-year-old attempt to explain human nature and human existence.

Do I believe there actually was an Adam, an Eve, a serpent, a forbidden fruit, a God walking in the Garden and all the rest? NO. Do I think this is why human experience pain in childbirth and snakes crawl on their bellies? NOOOO. I don't like to sound dismissive, but I guess I AM dismissive. This is the sort of thing I am absolutely gobsmacked that anyone in 2024 would purport to take literally. When it is expanded into things like Young Earth Creationism, I believe it's an absolute embarrassment and impediment to belief.

Take it seriously, on the other hand? Sure, fine. The Genesis accounts are foundational to NT theology, so the truths they express in mythical terms can't be ignored: In some mysterious way and for some mysterious reason, humans are estranged from God. In some mysterious way and for some mysterious reason, humans have a propensity to misuse their free will. All of this may express no more than that "God is holy and you are not. God is the creator and you are the creature. God has blessed you with free will, placed you in an environment with difficult moral challenges and choices, and it is your choice and responsibility for how you respond." In other words, in my little peewee theology, Genesis 1-11 is simply an expression of the human condition, which to me still qualifies as taking it seriously.
 

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