The Cornerstone and the Foundation

[Arial]

Eph 2:19-22 Now, therefore, you (Paul is speaking to believers) are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

What does it mean that Jesus is called the chief cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets lay the foundation when it speaks, as this scripture is, of Christ's church?

In building, a cornerstone is the first stone laid, and is the most important part of the building as it determines the position of all the pieces to be laid afterwards. Jesus then, who He is, what He did and why He did it, and what comes afterwards, is who the foundation of His church is built.

What is the foundation? It is the lowest (closest to the soil) load bearing part of a building. It provides overall stability for the structure. It serves the purpose of providing a level surface for the construction. The soil movement effect is resisted and prevented. Scouring and the undermining issues are solved by the construction of foundation.

So if the apostles, their writings and teachings that we find in scripture, are this foundation, this is the doctrine (a set of beliefs taught by a church etc. in this case Christ's church, known as Christians). And if it is built also on the prophets, we know this was prophesied in the OT, but it also brings together the unity of the entire Bible and its teachings. The entire building, made up of living stones, (individuals) are attached to and dependant upon the cornerstone and the foundation remaining stable and unshifting. Everything concerning the cornerstone and the foundation must not shift, it can have no other foundation, and every bit of this cornerstone and foundation is found within the pages of one Book, the Bible. It cannot be added to or taken from, or it will fall. Even though people are allowed to read and interpret for themselves the Bible, no interpretation of man will ever change one iota of the cornerstone or the foundation. Either the interpretation is in agreement with the plain meaning, or it is not. Either one is apart of the building, or they are not.

This is a boundary, one set by God Himself. People hate boundaries almost more than anything else. Never was this more apparent than in the garden of Eden. To this day we bristle at the idea that God would set boundaries, especially when it comes to salvation. Even a true Christian will find that old seed of sin trying to grow roots at the thought of restrictions and boundaries. It is instinctual, that old hatred of God for the boundaries He sets particularly the moral ones, around His creation. In fact, so much do we hate boundaries or even the suggestion of them, this post will no doubt go utterly ignored and dismissed, even by those of the household of God.

But the cornerstone will not move, and the foundation will not shift, and Jesus will build His church, and keep it true and safe until the day of His return, when every other structure and building material will be burned with fire.

 

[shroom]

In fact, so much do we hate boundaries or even the suggestion of them, this post will no doubt go utterly ignored and dismissed, even by those of the household of God.

What are you looking for in a response? Agreement? Disagreement?

I agree with your premises. Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the truth is found in the Bible.

 

[Arial]

What are you looking for in a response? Agreement? Disagreement?

I agree with your premises. Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the truth is found in the Bible.

What am I looking for? Conversation.
Apostolic, therefore historic Christianity, as to its doctrinal truth and creeds and beliefs, (all different words for the same thing) is not only in the Bible, it is limited to what is in the Bible. When we come along and change those things, redefine them. add to them. take away from them, we have stepped outside the boundaries Jesus set for His church, and become something else. Some things in scripture can be seen through different views as long as they do no violence to the consistent truth. But those things pertaining to who Jesus is and the work that He did, and how that is applied to us, and the results it achieves---are not negotiable. And God's moral law never changes or shifts to suit culture.

 

[shroom]

What am I looking for? Conversation.
Apostolic, therefore historic Christianity, as to its doctrinal truth and creeds and beliefs, (all different words for the same thing) is not only in the Bible, it is limited to what is in the Bible. When we come along and change those things, redefine them. add to them. take away from them, we have stepped outside the boundaries Jesus set for His church, and become something else. Some things in scripture can be seen through different views as long as they do no violence to the consistent truth. But those things pertaining to who Jesus is and the work that He did, and how that is applied to us, and the results it achieves---are not negotiable. And God's moral law never changes or shifts to suit culture.

I do not accept that some of the currently accepted Christian creeds and beliefs are doctrinal truth. They go beyond what the Bible teaches.

 

[Arial]

I do not accept that some of the currently accepted Christian creeds and beliefs are doctrinal truth. They go beyond what the Bible teaches.

It doesn't really matter if one accepts that or not. It just indicates that it doesn't line up with what that person believes or chooses to believe. ANd from what I have seen on the forum so far, those who disagree on certain points with the creeds must do so with a lot of discrediting of historical figures, resorting to supposed mistranslations, and making contradictions in the Bible. All of which suggest that it is more of a not want to believe them more than anything else and for whatever reason.

The creeds came from simple reading of the plain text and comparing scripture with scripture, letting the Bible interpret itself. And it wasn't done by rogue individuals---that is where the heresies came from---but by councils, and bulls, and synods. It was the most important work for them, to establish unity of doctrine true to the cornerstone and the foundation.

But even a great deal of traditional Christianity, those who adhere with the majority of typical Christian doctrine, and the majority of our churches, have chosen to toss aside the creeds. Many don't even have statements of faith. And that is why I often speak of it as our walls being broken down and our gates burned with fire, as Nehemiah spoke of Jerusalem. The boundaries have been breached. So you see---those creeds and things were very, very important. Not that anyone cares.

 

[shroom]

It doesn't really matter if one accepts that or not. It just indicates that it doesn't line up with what that person believes or chooses to believe. ANd from what I have seen on the forum so far, those who disagree on certain points with the creeds must do so with a lot of discrediting of historical figures, resorting to supposed mistranslations, and making contradictions in the Bible. All of which suggest that it is more of a not want to believe them more than anything else and for whatever reason.

The "historical figures" who came up with the doctrine of the Trinity are wrong. The Bible does not teach that God is a Trinity. Like it or not, there are some mistranslations and textual additions to the Bible. Understanding that God is the Father alone and that Jesus Christ is a human being does not make contradictions in the Bible.

The creeds came from simple reading of the plain text and comparing scripture with scripture, letting the Bible interpret itself.

What "plain text" says that Jesus Christ is "very God of very God"? Or that God is a Trinity? Or that God is one essence consisting of three divine Persons?

And it wasn't done by rogue individuals---that is where the heresies came from---but by councils, and bulls, and synods. It was the most important work for them, to establish unity of doctrine true to the cornerstone and the foundation.

But the "unity of doctrine" they came up with does not match what the Bible says.

But even a great deal of traditional Christianity, those who adhere with the majority of typical Christian doctrine, and the majority of our churches, have chosen to toss aside the creeds. Many don't even have statements of faith. And that is why I often speak of it as our walls being broken down and our gates burned with fire, as Nehemiah spoke of Jerusalem. The boundaries have been breached. So you see---those creeds and things were very, very important. Not that anyone cares.

Creeds are good if they're accurate. Many creeds aren't.

You write well, but all you're doing is stating what you believe, Arial.

 

[Arial]

The "historical figures" who came up with the doctrine of the Trinity are wrong. The Bible does not teach that God is a Trinity. Like it or not, there are some mistranslations and textual additions to the Bible. Understanding that God is the Father alone and that Jesus Christ is a human being does not make contradictions in the Bible.

I rest my case. You have just done exactly what I said those who oppose the traditional teachings of Christianity do. But this is not a thread on discussing the Trinity.

What "plain text" says that Jesus Christ is "very God of very God"? Or that God is a Trinity? Or that God is one essence consisting of three divine Persons?

You have been shown them countless times and countless different plain texts. You simply say they are not true and find a way to proof text your way around the plain truth. But this is not a thread on discussing the Trinity.

But the "unity of doctrine" they came up with does not match what the Bible says.

Which is just another way of saying that you believe something else. And the unity of doctrine contains much more than the Trinity, so would need to be specific---leaving the Trinity doctrine out of the equation for the moment, as that derails into a useless another thread on the Trinity.

Creeds are good if they're accurate. Many creeds aren't.

You write well, but all you're doing is stating what you believe, Arial.

To say they are not accurate is simply to say that the only accurate ones are those that agree with what you believe. It is possible to believe and know the truth, and to state it. And it is not that I trust men, but I do trust God to work through men that He appoints to any given task, to do so accurately, when it comes to the most vital issues of all of life for all of mankind. A rescue from the kingdom of darkness into which we are born and imprisoned, and in which we live with the affects of. In addition to this I find no contradictions, and no fault in the doctrines as outlined in the various historic but abandoned creeds, when I look for myself in the scriptures to see if what they teach is consistent with all of scripture. And if the creeds affirm (not make up but affirm with scripture) the deity of Christ, then to deny this is to utterly change the rock, the cornerstone and foundation of His church. Is in fact a different Jesus than the one God says He is. But this is not a discussion of the Trinity. I only say this because it is the only thing you have brought up in your objections.

Does the church you attend have a creed or a statement of "what we believe"? If so, what is in it, when and how did they arrive there? What is in sermon content? What is most stressed as of supreme importance?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello, Arial, Shroom,

For me the chief cornerstone is Jesus that is founded in the historical ancient text called the Apostlic Record, with support from the Old Testament to back up the claims about him. He death, burial, and resurrection is what is needed in faith to become born again in which God gives us the Holy Spirit, and the spirit of Christ and the kingdom of God lives within a person which leads us to becoming children of God, and we can make our choice to grow in our knowledge of God or not.

A scripture to prove my point on choice of growing or not?

​

2 Peter 1:​

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;(A)6 and to knowledge, self-control;(B) and to self-control, perseverance;(C) and to perseverance, godliness;(D) 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.(E) 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive(F) in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.(G) 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind,(H)forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.(I)​

​

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling(J) and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,(K) 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom(L) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.(M)​

​

Prophecy of Scripture​

12 So I will always remind you of these things,(N) even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth(O) you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory(P) as long as I live in the tent of this body,(Q) 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside,(R) as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.(S) 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure(T) you will always be able to remember these things.​

When it comes to learning from others, there are some I agree with, some I disagree with.

Love you!

 

[Arial]

For me the chief cornerstone is Jesus that is founded in the historical ancient text called the Apostlic Record, with support from the Old Testament to back up the claims about him. He death, burial, and resurrection is what is needed in faith to become born again in which God gives us the Holy Spirit, and the spirit of Christ and the kingdom of God lives within a person which leads us to becoming children of God, and we can make our choice to grow in our knowledge of God or not.

Actually the requirement for being born again (which you fail to define) is knowing Jesus for who He is, and of resting one's salvation in trusting what He did. It is much more than simply believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. I am quite certain the devil and his minions believe that also. And many will give assent to it without having a clue what is contained within it, and therefore not knowing Jesus in a personal saving way. The foundation that the apostles built is everything written in Acts and the epistles. You have to not only believe in all of it, but know it and trust it. True salvation produces growth, just as it produces the fruit of obedience. The growth comes after the faith and is known as sanctification. A progressive learning and doing. That adheres strictly to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

12 So I will always remind you of these things,(N) even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth(O) you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory(P) as long as I live in the tent of this body,(Q) 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside,(R) as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.(S) 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure(T) you will always be able to remember these things.

Peter is talking to believers who have been taught and believed the things of Christ. "firmly established in the truth you now have". And he says that as long as he is alive on earth he will not cease to remind them. Why you felt the need to present it here, and as prophecy, I have not a clue.

When it comes to learning from others, there are some I agree with, some I disagree with.

Why is it a matter of whether you agree with it or not? Growth comes from diligently searching out the truth, and having a desire for truth whether you agree with it, or like it, or not. Growth does not come from those teachings of men that have a very casual and self satisfying view of truth, and then teach it as though it were absolute truth, even though much of it is in direct contradiction to the Bible, and even more of the Bible is left out completely; but with which you agree, no matter what it is they say.

Love you!

If you were to use a Greek word for love here, what would that word be?

 

[patience]

Actually the requirement for being born again (which you fail to define) is knowing Jesus for who He is, and of resting one's salvation in trusting what He did. It is much more than simply believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. I am quite certain the devil and his minions believe that also. And many will give assent to it without having a clue what is contained within it, and therefore not knowing Jesus in a personal saving way. The foundation that the apostles built is everything written in Acts and the epistles. You have to not only believe in all of it, but know it and trust it. True salvation produces growth, just as it produces the fruit of obedience. The growth comes after the faith and is known as sanctification. A progressive learning and doing. That adheres strictly to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

Peter is talking to believers who have been taught and believed the things of Christ. "firmly established in the truth you now have". And he says that as long as he is alive on earth he will not cease to remind them. Why you felt the need to present it here, and as prophecy, I have not a clue.

Why is it a matter of whether you agree with it or not? Growth comes from diligently searching out the truth, and having a desire for truth whether you agree with it, or like it, or not. Growth does not come from those teachings of men that have a very casual and self satisfying view of truth, and then teach it as though it were absolute truth, even though much of it is in direct contradiction to the Bible, and even more of the Bible is left out completely; but with which you agree, no matter what it is they say.

If you were to use a Greek word for love here, what would that word be?

I know you don't like me to do this but I'm butting in because I would just like to point out that MatthewG did not misstate when he said "faith in his (Jesus) death, burial and resurrection is what is needed to be born again", i.e. saved. Romans 10:9,10 clearly states how one is saved. Should we know all that we can know about Jesus according to scripture and trust in him? Of course! We should know all that we can know concerning our heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ according to scripture and trust in them both.

Any truth we reach should never be in direct contradiction to scripture which is why we are told to study the word of God because we each will stand accountable for ourselves not by something someone has taught us.

Sorry for butting in!

 

[MatthewG]

Actually the requirement for being born again (which you fail to define) is knowing Jesus for who He is, and of resting one's salvation in trusting what He did. It is much more than simply believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. I am quite certain the devil and his minions believe that also. And many will give assent to it without having a clue what is contained within it, and therefore not knowing Jesus in a personal saving way. The foundation that the apostles built is everything written in Acts and the epistles. You have to not only believe in all of it, but know it and trust it. True salvation produces growth, just as it produces the fruit of obedience. The growth comes after the faith and is known as sanctification. A progressive learning and doing. That adheres strictly to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

Peter is talking to believers who have been taught and believed the things of Christ. "firmly established in the truth you now have". And he says that as long as he is alive on earth he will not cease to remind them. Why you felt the need to present it here, and as prophecy, I have not a clue.

Why is it a matter of whether you agree with it or not? Growth comes from diligently searching out the truth, and having a desire for truth whether you agree with it, or like it, or not. Growth does not come from those teachings of men that have a very casual and self satisfying view of truth, and then teach it as though it were absolute truth, even though much of it is in direct contradiction to the Bible, and even more of the Bible is left out completely; but with which you agree, no matter what it is they say.

If you were to use a Greek word for love here, what would that word be?

Thank you for your thoughts on the matter, Arial.

 

[Arial]

I know you don't like me to do this but I'm butting in because I would just like to point out that MatthewG did not misstate when he said "faith in his (Jesus) death, burial and resurrection is what is needed to be born again", i.e. saved. Romans 10:9,10 clearly states how one is saved. Should we know all that we can know about Jesus according to scripture and trust in him? Of course! We should know all that we can know concerning our heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ according to scripture and trust in them both.

Any truth we reach should never be in direct contradiction to scripture which is why we are told to study the word of God because we each will stand accountable for ourselves not by something someone has taught us.

Sorry for butting in!

When one knows and trusts in Jesus, they also believe in His death, burial and resurrection. That is not the sum total of what we must believe. That is all I was saying, as the full context of my post makes clear. There is much more to Romans 10:9-10 than the simplistic statement that Paul made. This is born out by everything else he said as well as the other apostles. It is that scripture being pulled out as being all it takes and used to "get people saved" that results in many who think they are saved when there has been no personal connection made between them and Jesus. Anyone can confess with their mouth Jesus. What does that mean? Anyone can say they believe in their heart that He was raised from the dead. What does that mean exists within the heart of the person? The entire chapter 10 lays out what it does and doesn't mean. We can't confess Jesus in the way that Paul meant unless we know Him. To base salvation on speaking out loud that Jesus died, was buried and came back to life is outlandish. Think of all the utterly false religions that agree with the death and resurrection of Jesus.