• Welcome to White Horse Forums. We ask that you would please take a moment to introduce yourself in the New Members section. Tell us a bit about yourself and dive in!

On The Sovereignty of God

A

Arial

Guest
Most traditional Christians---the doctrines of the tulip aside or having been set aside--- will agree with the statement that God is sovereign. If those elements of the doctrines are not adhered to, which is understable given the day and age we live in where they have almost universally been removed, there is a place where His sovereignty is not agreed with in practice. That would be the free will argument, though that in itself I do not believe affects salvation. That all not only have a will that can choose God but that it is free to do so or not to do so. Briefly, a free will, as I see it, is a concept that does not and cannot be possible. A persons will does not act independently and freely. It is always acted upon, by our circumstances and desires.

Either God is Sovereign or He is not. He shows us in His word that He is and in what way that He is. I will list but a few. We see it first in the entire account of creation. Is 25:8-9; Ps 115:3; Dan 4:35; Eph 1:11; Prov 21:1; Is 45:7; Prov 19:21; Prov 16:4,9; Job chapters 38-41. He has a plan before He ever enacts and begins that plan, and it must be under His control and complete in all its details, from the smallest to the largest, or we have chaos. It is a plan of His decree--ordination---and will come to pass by His power and wisdom. He is the first cause of everything and brings it about through second causes.

If for whatever reason this is too big an idea of God, and it certainly can be frightening as we are all control freaks at heart, some have been forced to devise a different usage of sovereign, so that their beliefs can be maintained. This is often expressed, "Sure God is sovereign," they may say, as otherwise the heresy of the rest of their beliefs would be exposed, "but not in the way Calvinists believe." Everyone knows after all that the most powerful weapon that can be wielded against a doctrine when the Bible will not actually back it up their view, is to utter the declaration "Calvinism!" So what other usages of sovereign can we find if we go to the dictionary or the world, rather than the Bible? Well we could use supreme ruler, which would greatly reduce God in sovereignty and power. After all a supreme ruler could be a president of a nation or a company(neither of which controls all things.) And then we could just drop the argument there and hope it goes away. We could even use the same type of process to remove the deity of Christ, and make Him to be a creature of world importance, the greatest prophet and human agent of God ever. Who died on a cross so now we have our sins forgiven when one day we say "I decide I will believe this stuff about Jesus." And Jesus says "Good job!" And since we are told to worship Jesus but also only God, we can go to the dictionary and the world to find the most applicable usage of worship to cover all our bases.
 
Most traditional Christians---the doctrines of the tulip aside or having been set aside--- will agree with the statement that God is sovereign. If those elements of the doctrines are not adhered to, which is understable given the day and age we live in where they have almost universally been removed, there is a place where His sovereignty is not agreed with in practice. That would be the free will argument, though that in itself I do not believe affects salvation. That all not only have a will that can choose God but that it is free to do so or not to do so. Briefly, a free will, as I see it, is a concept that does not and cannot be possible. A persons will does not act independently and freely. It is always acted upon, by our circumstances and desires.

Either God is Sovereign or He is not. He shows us in His word that He is and in what way that He is. I will list but a few. We see it first in the entire account of creation. Is 25:8-9; Ps 115:3; Dan 4:35; Eph 1:11; Prov 21:1; Is 45:7; Prov 19:21; Prov 16:4,9; Job chapters 38-41. He has a plan before He ever enacts and begins that plan, and it must be under His control and complete in all its details, from the smallest to the largest, or we have chaos. It is a plan of His decree--ordination---and will come to pass by His power and wisdom. He is the first cause of everything and brings it about through second causes.

If for whatever reason this is too big an idea of God, and it certainly can be frightening as we are all control freaks at heart, some have been forced to devise a different usage of sovereign, so that their beliefs can be maintained. This is often expressed, "Sure God is sovereign," they may say, as otherwise the heresy of the rest of their beliefs would be exposed, "but not in the way Calvinists believe." Everyone knows after all that the most powerful weapon that can be wielded against a doctrine when the Bible will not actually back it up their view, is to utter the declaration "Calvinism!" So what other usages of sovereign can we find if we go to the dictionary or the world, rather than the Bible? Well we could use supreme ruler, which would greatly reduce God in sovereignty and power. After all a supreme ruler could be a president of a nation or a company(neither of which controls all things.) And then we could just drop the argument there and hope it goes away. We could even use the same type of process to remove the deity of Christ, and make Him to be a creature of world importance, the greatest prophet and human agent of God ever. Who died on a cross so now we have our sins forgiven when one day we say "I decide I will believe this stuff about Jesus." And Jesus says "Good job!" And since we are told to worship Jesus but also only God, we can go to the dictionary and the world to find the most applicable usage of worship to cover all our bases.
Calvinists have a twisted perverted idea of the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign only within his holy just nature. This means that God cannot and will not do anything that is against his holy just nature. To say that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is blasphemy against the Gospel, his Son Jesus Christ and against God the Father. It is the heresy of all heresies and those that teach such things are under the judgment of God.
 
Calvinists have a twisted perverted idea of the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign only within his holy just nature. This means that God cannot and will not do anything that is against his holy just nature. To say that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is blasphemy against the Gospel, his Son Jesus Christ and against God the Father. It is the heresy of all heresies and those that teach such things are under the judgment of God.
You have a twisted perverted idea of what the Calvinist idea of the sovereignty of God is. You have never stated it correctly yet. There is such a blind spot there that you cannot hear. The Calvinist doctrine of God agrees 100% that God cannot and will not do anything that is against His holy nature. For you to say that anything that God does, if it is something you don't like, means that it is blasphemy to acknowledge that He does any of those things that you don't like and refuse to understand, is itself blasphemy. God did not create anyone for the express purpose that they would go to hell. All people are born into Adam and destined for hell. Yet surely you even acknowledge that as fact. Is that God doing something against His nature that He allows people, even ordains, that they will be born" Can He prevent everyone from being born? Could He have killed Adam and Eve at once and started over, this time giving them no commands or preventing them from disobeying? Is it against His nature and will that He didn't do so? Does it make Him evil?

Stop defining God by your own likes and dislikes and accept Him as He is. Otherwise you are refusing to bow down before God and instead are bowing before a god made in your own image. God made us in His image. He is not made in our image.

What is much more concerning than the "calvinist" view of sovereignty is the Arminianist view that God made a perfect plan of redemption all the way up to the very suffering, tortuous (does that make Him evil?) sacrifice of His Son on the cross, and afterwards abandoned the cause and those for whom Christ died, and left the effectiveness and our eternal destiny in the hands of whimsical, fickle, faithless, sinful man. And even though I see it that way, I do not dare cross the line over into God's territory and declare that His judgment is against them for believing that.
 
You have a twisted perverted idea of what the Calvinist idea of the sovereignty of God is. You have never stated it correctly yet. There is such a blind spot there that you cannot hear. The Calvinist doctrine of God agrees 100% that God cannot and will not do anything that is against His holy nature. For you to say that anything that God does, if it is something you don't like, means that it is blasphemy to acknowledge that He does any of those things that you don't like and refuse to understand, is itself blasphemy. God did not create anyone for the express purpose that they would go to hell. All people are born into Adam and destined for hell. Yet surely you even acknowledge that as fact. Is that God doing something against His nature that He allows people, even ordains, that they will be born" Can He prevent everyone from being born? Could He have killed Adam and Eve at once and started over, this time giving them no commands or preventing them from disobeying? Is it against His nature and will that He didn't do so? Does it make Him evil?

Stop defining God by your own likes and dislikes and accept Him as He is. Otherwise you are refusing to bow down before God and instead are bowing before a god made in your own image. God made us in His image. He is not made in our image.

What is much more concerning than the "calvinist" view of sovereignty is the Arminianist view that God made a perfect plan of redemption all the way up to the very suffering, tortuous (does that make Him evil?) sacrifice of His Son on the cross, and afterwards abandoned the cause and those for whom Christ died, and left the effectiveness and our eternal destiny in the hands of whimsical, fickle, faithless, sinful man. And even though I see it that way, I do not dare cross the line over into God's territory and declare that His judgment is against them for believing that.
God gave people free will, and people must exercise their free will and decide to believe the gospel if they want to get saved.

That's the truth.

Concerning your citing Prov 21:1 in your defending the Calvinist understanding of God's sovereignty:

There are dozens of places in the Bible where kings disobey God and do horrific things. There is a long list of the kings of Israel and Judah of whom it is specifically stated that they “did evil in the sight of the Lord.” Solomon was one (1 Kings 11:6). So were Nadab (1 Kings 15:25-26), Baasha (1 Kings 15:33-34), Ahab (1 Kings 16:30), Ahaziah king of Israel (1 Kings 22:51-52), Jehoram (2 Kings 8:16-18), Ahaziah king of Judah (2 Kings 8:26-27), Jehoahaz (2 Kings 13:1-2), Jehoash (2 Kings 13:10-11), Jeroboam II (2 Kings 14:23-24), Zechariah (2 Kings 15:8-9), Menahem (2 Kings 15:17-18), Pekahiah (2 Kings 15:23-24), Pekah (2 Kings 15:27-28), Hoshea (2 Kings 17:1-2), Manasseh (2 Kings 21:1-2; 2 Chron. 33:1-2), Amon (2 Kings 21:19-20; 2 Chron. 33:21-22), Jehoahaz (2 Kings 23:31-32), Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:36-37; 2 Chron. 36:5), Jehoiachin (2 Kings 24:8-9; 2 Chron. 36:9), and Zedekiah (2 Kings 24:18-19; 2 Chron. 36:11-12; Jer. 52:1-2).

If God was making those kings do evil and turning their hearts away from Him, then He would be fighting against Himself because He also commands us to come to Him, obey His Word, and live righteous lives. God is not the author of confusion, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The very definition of “evil in God’s sight” is that it refers to thoughts and actions that are contrary to the will of God. But if God is the cause behind a king’s (or any person’s) evil thoughts and actions, then the person would not be doing that which was “evil in the sight of the Lord,” he would be doing the will of God—what God wanted him to do; and by definition, obeying the will of God is not doing evil.

^^^ https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Proverbs/21/1
 
God gave people free will, and people must exercise their free will and decide to believe the gospel if they want to get saved.

That's the truth.

Concerning your citing Prov 21:1 in your defending the Calvinist understanding of God's sovereignty:



^^^ https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Proverbs/21/1
That's a lie. I have proved it is a lie. You have yet to prove it is true.

That quote you quote from your masters won't requote. Type it out or find a way to copy and paste it so it will quote, and I will respond to it. I'm not going back and forth between two things to do it or type it out myself. I will just say, the first assertion is wrong. God was not making those kings do anything. They were doing exactly what they wanted to do.
 
That's a lie. I have proved it is a lie. You have yet to prove it is true.
It's the truth, you have proved nothing, the Bible proves it.

That quote you quote from your masters won't requote. Type it out or find a way to copy and paste it so it will quote, and I will respond to it. I'm not going back and forth between two things to do it or type it out myself. I will just say, the first assertion is wrong. God was not making those kings do anything. They were doing exactly what they wanted to do.
Learn to copy/paste. It's not that hard. But here you go:

There are dozens of places in the Bible where kings disobey God and do horrific things. There is a long list of the kings of Israel and Judah of whom it is specifically stated that they “did evil in the sight of the Lord.” Solomon was one (1 Kings 11:6). So were Nadab (1 Kings 15:25-26), Baasha (1 Kings 15:33-34), Ahab (1 Kings 16:30), Ahaziah king of Israel (1 Kings 22:51-52), Jehoram (2 Kings 8:16-18), Ahaziah king of Judah (2 Kings 8:26-27), Jehoahaz (2 Kings 13:1-2), Jehoash (2 Kings 13:10-11), Jeroboam II (2 Kings 14:23-24), Zechariah (2 Kings 15:8-9), Menahem (2 Kings 15:17-18), Pekahiah (2 Kings 15:23-24), Pekah (2 Kings 15:27-28), Hoshea (2 Kings 17:1-2), Manasseh (2 Kings 21:1-2; 2 Chron. 33:1-2), Amon (2 Kings 21:19-20; 2 Chron. 33:21-22), Jehoahaz (2 Kings 23:31-32), Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:36-37; 2 Chron. 36:5), Jehoiachin (2 Kings 24:8-9; 2 Chron. 36:9), and Zedekiah (2 Kings 24:18-19; 2 Chron. 36:11-12; Jer. 52:1-2).

If God was making those kings do evil and turning their hearts away from Him, then He would be fighting against Himself because He also commands us to come to Him, obey His Word, and live righteous lives. God is not the author of confusion, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The very definition of “evil in God’s sight” is that it refers to thoughts and actions that are contrary to the will of God. But if God is the cause behind a king’s (or any person’s) evil thoughts and actions, then the person would not be doing that which was “evil in the sight of the Lord,” he would be doing the will of God—what God wanted him to do; and by definition, obeying the will of God is not doing evil.
 
God gave people free will, and people must exercise their free will and decide to believe the gospel if they want to get saved.

That's the truth.

Concerning your citing Prov 21:1 in your defending the Calvinist understanding of God's sovereignty:
Not to re-steer your discussion here, I just want to get clear what you think Proverbs 21:1 means as I see you are introducing a deliberate new and unwarranted meaning into it to support your anti-Calvinist argument? I want to see a fair and balanced discussion like most people..

And I would not personally use this verse either, as my strong support for God's sovereignty as Arial as you say did/does for Calvinism.

(Pro 21:1) God Knows All about Us

'The king’s heart is in Yahweh’s hand like the watercourses; He turns it wherever He desires.' (NEV)

It is one thing to infer that Kings and those in power exercise their will from their hearts, as anyone, and they do over many people, and then another to add into the verse, as another inference that God is not sovereign because many Kings that do exercise their will and they always will of course, can cause evil and wickedness because of it. And you cited many sources as your support. And therefore you conclude that God is not sovereign!

Yes, powerful men's will and decisions carry more weight and cause more profound consequences not just for themselves also for many people. It is this background that the verse is written in.

The thing is you are not really addressing the verse at all. Why not?

The watercourses mentioned or channels of water is a metaphor for irrigating the lands and producing crops or grass, making things prosper and grow for a good purpose. It is used in this verse to depict that God can (he is ultimately in control) divert the course of these waters and channels (whether the Kings' hearts are bent on evil at times, or not) for his good purpose and he does this to any King of the past and those of power today. Just because God does not sway and influence all Kings, all the time, as we perceive, does not mean God is not sovereign. It is not a binary deduction to conclude here like all or nothing. I'm seeing that you might be believing that God cannot control a man's will in any capacity at any time.

Scripture then is against this thought.

Man's will can never trump God's will, ever.

If I made a bad call here then let me know...thanks


 
You have a twisted perverted idea of what the Calvinist idea of the sovereignty of God is. You have never stated it correctly yet. There is such a blind spot there that you cannot hear. The Calvinist doctrine of God agrees 100% that God cannot and will not do anything that is against His holy nature. For you to say that anything that God does, if it is something you don't like, means that it is blasphemy to acknowledge that He does any of those things that you don't like and refuse to understand, is itself blasphemy. God did not create anyone for the express purpose that they would go to hell. All people are born into Adam and destined for hell. Yet surely you even acknowledge that as fact. Is that God doing something against His nature that He allows people, even ordains, that they will be born" Can He prevent everyone from being born? Could He have killed Adam and Eve at once and started over, this time giving them no commands or preventing them from disobeying? Is it against His nature and will that He didn't do so? Does it make Him evil?

Stop defining God by your own likes and dislikes and accept Him as He is. Otherwise you are refusing to bow down before God and instead are bowing before a god made in your own image. God made us in His image. He is not made in our image.

What is much more concerning than the "calvinist" view of sovereignty is the Arminianist view that God made a perfect plan of redemption all the way up to the very suffering, tortuous (does that make Him evil?) sacrifice of His Son on the cross, and afterwards abandoned the cause and those for whom Christ died, and left the effectiveness and our eternal destiny in the hands of whimsical, fickle, faithless, sinful man. And even though I see it that way, I do not dare cross the line over into God's territory and declare that His judgment is against them for believing that.
Calvinism is a blatant attack on the holy just nature of God and a blatant attack on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

The Bible plainly teaches that, "God so loved the world (humanity) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. This scripture is about salvation by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8. To say that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to blasphemy his holy, just, righteous nature. It is the unforgivable sin.

Calvinists want us to believe that Adam lost his free will in the fall. Adam did not lose his free will, what he lost was his relationship with God. Man's free will is well and healthy. By his own free will Cane slew Able. God did not make him do that, nor did God predestinate him to do that. Calvinists believe that God ordained the murder of Abel.

Of all of the doctrines and religions in the world, Calvinism is one of the worst. You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with all of these false doctrines.
 
Back
Top