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I'm starting to appreciate the atheist perspective

O'Darby III

Well-known member
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After playing golf last week with my hardcore atheist friend, we stopped to have a beer. He shook his head and said, "Religion has done so much harm in the world." Instead of withnessing to him about Jesus, I said "My observation is that religion makes good people better, bad people worse and crazy people crazier. Alas, there are a lot more bad and crazy people than good ones." He replied, "Yes, that's just about right."

In my pretty considerable experience, I have encountered few genuinely dogmatic, fundamentalist atheists: "There ain't no God, we can live however we damn well please, and that's all there is to it." Most, if pressed, don't completely discount the possibility of postmortem survival or the existence of a spiritual realm. "Atheist," for them, really means something more like "disgusted with religion, especially this pushy nonsense that calls itself Christianity."

Increasingly, I have to agree. Notwithstanding all the good that Christianity and other religions have accomplished, their net effect has been extremely negative.

I am not so delusional that I believe an atheistic world, in which human nature were allowed to run amuck, would be better. Moreover, I happen to believe that the best evidence - of which most people are staggeringly ignorant - does point in the direction of postmortem survival, the existence of a spiritual realm, and even some sort of creator.

What would be better, I think, would be a frank acknowledgement that We Just Don't Know. We are all just guessing. We may believe the Bible is God-inspired and Jesus was resurrected and all the rest, but we don't know. We merely hold convictions on the basis of whatever data we have assembled and whatever interpretations and intuitions we apply to that data.

The most a Christian can legitimately say to a Buddhist or Hindu, and vice-versa, is "I don't know which of us is right, but I disagree with the data on which you rely and the interpretations and intuitions you apply to it."

Alvin Plantinga, the father of Reformed Epistemology, is regarded as one of the greatest Christian philosophers of modern times. I was staggered to hear him shallowly respond to a question about his view of other religions with a smug "Well, they can't all be right."

No, Alvin, they can't all be ontologically true, but all - including your Calvinist Christianity - can be ontologically false, or ontologically partly true. You just don't know, and neither do I or the Pope or the Dalai Lama or Deepak Chopra or anyone else. Why not be humble enough to admit this fact?

If one holds deep Christian convictions, it may be entertaining to consider and debate with other Christians the Inside Baseball sort of stuff like whether Yahweh is actually God's name (what???). But the overarching realization should be that you are debating the fine points of something you can't possibly know to be ontologically true. There may be no God at all, let alone one named Yahweh. Or perhaps his name is Allah, Brahma or Zeus.

The really sad spectacle is those believers who don't realize they really can't Know, who pretend to Know things that can't be known, and who browbeat others who believe differently about being Wrong. It's exactly why I'm starting to appreciate the atheist perspective that the world would be better off without religion. If we stuck to the evidence, we might have a world where pretty much everyone accepted the likelihood of postmortem survival, the existence of a spiritual realm, and some sort of higher purpose and meaning to our existence - as studies show some 15-20% of atheists actually do.
 
Great topic, thanks!
After playing golf last week with my hardcore atheist friend, we stopped to have a beer. He shook his head and said, "Religion has done so much harm in the world." Instead of withnessing to him about Jesus, I said "My observation is that religion makes good people better, bad people worse and crazy people crazier. Alas, there are a lot more bad and crazy people than good ones." He replied, "Yes, that's just about right."
It really opens a door for discussion when you find a platform for agreement and then work outward from there. What closes the door is immediate disagreement. (in my experience)

Atheists became the heroes in my mind after I watched this debate with Dan Barker. He clearly won the debate in my view. And Thomas Ross stooped to character assassination when he ran out of ammo. Which put Christianity in a very poor light.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpDXBx6sHA

Dan Barker / Thomas Ross Debate: Bible Prophecy and Archaeology (part 2 of 2)​


]
 
I am not so delusional that I believe an atheistic world, in which human nature were allowed to run amuck, would be better. Moreover, I happen to believe that the best evidence - of which most people are staggeringly ignorant - does point in the direction of postmortem survival, the existence of a spiritual realm, and even some sort of creator.
That's a good point. And we should consider how God might view a person like that. Especially compared to someone who was raised in the church but had no thoughts for anyone but themselves and their tribe.

[
 
What would be better, I think, would be a frank acknowledgement that We Just Don't Know. We are all just guessing. We may believe the Bible is God-inspired and Jesus was resurrected and all the rest, but we don't know. We merely hold convictions on the basis of whatever data we have assembled and whatever interpretations and intuitions we apply to that data.
Keeping this principle in mind helps keep the emotions in check when debating in these types of forums. I believe something is true, and what I believe should (theoretically) guide how I live my life. If somebody believes otherwise, I hope their beliefs don't lead them to hurt people, but otherwise, who cares? (Disregarding notions of Christian exclusivity combined with eternal conscious torment if you choose poorly, two of @SteVen's favorite subjects. That combo platter warps everything.)

However...

I lurked around some of the threads in CB that were started by a man down under in Oz who apparently has a history of mental issues dealing with acting on BELIEF rather than KNOWLEDGE. (Apparently his illness caused him to act on fantasies, and his counselor rightly tried to put that in check.) But the principle of acting only on knowledge, not belief of course put him in conflict with Christians. But my takeaway from those discussions was that there is a fine line between "belief" and "knowledge". I've never studied epistemology, but my understanding is that "knowledge" is just "beliefs" arrived at by certain well-defined criteria. How do we know we know what we know? I'm an engineer, and we make multimillion-dollar product decisions based on reliability tests that have a statistical confidence factor of 60%. Is information derived with a confidence factor slightly better than a coin flip "knowledge"?

And if you don't act on "belief", you get "paralysis by analysis" and nothing ever gets done.
 
I lurked around some of the threads in CB that were started by a man down under in Oz who apparently has a history of mental issues dealing with acting on BELIEF rather than KNOWLEDGE. (Apparently his illness caused him to act on fantasies, and his counselor rightly tried to put that in check.) But the principle of acting only on knowledge, not belief of course put him in conflict with Christians. But my takeaway from those discussions was that there is a fine line between "belief" and "knowledge". I've never studied epistemology, but my understanding is that "knowledge" is just "beliefs" arrived at by certain well-defined criteria. How do we know we know what we know? I'm an engineer, and we make multimillion-dollar product decisions based on reliability tests that have a statistical confidence factor of 60%. Is information derived with a confidence factor slightly better than a coin flip "knowledge"?
Epistemology has become one of my pet interests. The big distinction is between beliefs that are "justified" (or have "warrant") and those that do not. Alvin Plantinga points out that to be justified, beliefs must first and foremost be formed on the basis of "cognitive faculties operating as they were intended to operate in an environment in which they were intended to operate." So the delusional Aussie fails that test. This is my problem with Flat Earthers and similar folk: Unless we assume you're simply pretending to amuse yourself, which is my charitable default position until proven wrong, your cognitive faculties are clearly not operating properly - so how seriously can we take your views on anything.

Beliefs can be solidly justified - rationally arrived at on the basis of plausible evidence and inferences - but completely wrong. It happens all the time to all of us. So "justified belief" is not "knowledge." The standard definition of knowledge is something like "justified true belief" - your beliefs are both justified and true - although philosophers continue to debate what actually constitutes knowledge.

The problem with religious belief (including atheistic nonbelief) is that we can never have knowledge. All major religions provide a basis for justified belief, or that we would not have lasted as long as they have and attracted as many sane and intelligent believers as they have. But their metaphysical "truths" simply can't be known, at least this side of the grave or the Second Coming. So we acquire as much knowledge as we can and form beliefs sufficiently strong to be called deep convictions - but they are still simply beliefs, not knowledge.

It's difficult to admit that one's most cherished beliefs that form the very foundation of his life may simply not be true, but that's the unavoidable reality when it comes to religious beliefs.

I had an amusing incident when my role as an assistant attorney general was to file paternity cases against deadbeat dads. As a newbie, I was delighted when a test came back with a 99.4% probability of the guy being dad. The main office called and said "Dismiss the case." WHAT - 99.4% probability and you want me to dismiss??? "That's not even close - it's gotta be 99.9%." Geez, I thought I had knowledge and I didn't even have justified belief!
 
I think it is interesting that most atheists were former Christians.

This guy is a real straight shooter. Puts many Christians to shame.
Drew at genetically modified skeptic.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7urcE4IwMf0

This video contains 100% therapeutic grade skepticism.

]
I think many people still suspect that, deep down, Bart Ehrman is a closet Christian even though he purports to be a materialistic atheist. He is the proverbial "former fundie who switched immediately to atheism when he learned it wasn't 105% infallibly, inerrantly True." It's hard to believe anyone would devote an entire life to the study of Christianity without at least a kernel of belief. Whatever he actually believes, what he and others like him bring to "Christianity" is invaluable to those with ears to hear. Those without ears to hear are living a fantasy, one most of them don't really believe.
 
I think many people still suspect that, deep down, Bart Ehrman is a closet Christian even though he purports to be a materialistic atheist. He is the proverbial "former fundie who switched immediately to atheism when he learned it wasn't 105% infallibly, inerrantly True." It's hard to believe anyone would devote an entire life to the study of Christianity without at least a kernel of belief. Whatever he actually believes, what he and others like him bring to "Christianity" is invaluable to those with ears to hear. Those without ears to hear are living a fantasy, one most of them don't really believe.
In many cases becoming an "atheist" is an over-reaction to leaving Christianity. A person need to do a 180 to leave the church. A right or left turn does the job.

]
 
In many cases becoming an "atheist" is an over-reaction to leaving Christianity. A person need to do a 180 to leave the church. A right or left turn does the job.

]
Correction: A person DOESN'T need to do a 180 to leave the church. A right or left turn does the job.

Isaiah 30:21 NIV
Whether you turn to the right or to the left,
your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying,
“This is the way; walk in it.”

]
 
In many cases becoming an "atheist" is an over-reaction to leaving Christianity. A person need to do a 180 to leave the church. A right or left turn does the job.

]
Which is why those who do so ALWAYS had been buying into a narrow, rigid, brittle fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. It's the old Buddhist proverb whereby the mighty oak cracks and topples in a 70 mph wind while the grass and reeds just bend and enjoy the breeze. It's also, I've always thought, why so many Christian leaders fall in such spectacular, jaw-dropping ways. They were attempting to live in some rigid straitjacket of "pretend saintliness" that simply isn't possible, and when that facade finally cracked it completely crumbled.
 
Which is why those who do so ALWAYS had been buying into a narrow, rigid, brittle fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. It's the old Buddhist proverb whereby the mighty oak cracks and topples in a 70 mph wind while the grass and reeds just bend and enjoy the breeze. It's also, I've always thought, why so many Christian leaders fall in such spectacular, jaw-dropping ways. They were attempting to live in some rigid straitjacket of "pretend saintliness" that simply isn't possible, and when that facade finally cracked it completely crumbled.
Right.
Part of this comes from the denial of our own humanity. Which is seen as evil. And there is something to that if we don't rein it in.

Our leaders, and even their followers are expected to be superhuman. "Christ-like".

I told you earlier about my invitation to join the prayer team at my church. The first requirement is holiness. Say what?

[
 
After playing golf last week with my hardcore atheist friend, we stopped to have a beer. He shook his head and said, "Religion has done so much harm in the world." Instead of withnessing to him about Jesus, I said "My observation is that religion makes good people better, bad people worse and crazy people crazier. Alas, there are a lot more bad and crazy people than good ones." He replied, "Yes, that's just about right."

In my pretty considerable experience, I have encountered few genuinely dogmatic, fundamentalist atheists: "There ain't no God, we can live however we damn well please, and that's all there is to it." Most, if pressed, don't completely discount the possibility of postmortem survival or the existence of a spiritual realm. "Atheist," for them, really means something more like "disgusted with religion, especially this pushy nonsense that calls itself Christianity."

Increasingly, I have to agree. Notwithstanding all the good that Christianity and other religions have accomplished, their net effect has been extremely negative.

I am not so delusional that I believe an atheistic world, in which human nature were allowed to run amuck, would be better. Moreover, I happen to believe that the best evidence - of which most people are staggeringly ignorant - does point in the direction of postmortem survival, the existence of a spiritual realm, and even some sort of creator.

What would be better, I think, would be a frank acknowledgement that We Just Don't Know. We are all just guessing. We may believe the Bible is God-inspired and Jesus was resurrected and all the rest, but we don't know. We merely hold convictions on the basis of whatever data we have assembled and whatever interpretations and intuitions we apply to that data.

The most a Christian can legitimately say to a Buddhist or Hindu, and vice-versa, is "I don't know which of us is right, but I disagree with the data on which you rely and the interpretations and intuitions you apply to it."

Alvin Plantinga, the father of Reformed Epistemology, is regarded as one of the greatest Christian philosophers of modern times. I was staggered to hear him shallowly respond to a question about his view of other religions with a smug "Well, they can't all be right."

No, Alvin, they can't all be ontologically true, but all - including your Calvinist Christianity - can be ontologically false, or ontologically partly true. You just don't know, and neither do I or the Pope or the Dalai Lama or Deepak Chopra or anyone else. Why not be humble enough to admit this fact?

If one holds deep Christian convictions, it may be entertaining to consider and debate with other Christians the Inside Baseball sort of stuff like whether Yahweh is actually God's name (what???). But the overarching realization should be that you are debating the fine points of something you can't possibly know to be ontologically true. There may be no God at all, let alone one named Yahweh. Or perhaps his name is Allah, Brahma or Zeus.

The really sad spectacle is those believers who don't realize they really can't Know, who pretend to Know things that can't be known, and who browbeat others who believe differently about being Wrong. It's exactly why I'm starting to appreciate the atheist perspective that the world would be better off without religion. If we stuck to the evidence, we might have a world where pretty much everyone accepted the likelihood of postmortem survival, the existence of a spiritual realm, and some sort of higher purpose and meaning to our existence - as studies show some 15-20% of atheists actually do.

Well said, except for the idea that atheism becomes acceptable by redefining the term to something mushy like “disgusted with religion” or the practice of it, by some Christians. That’s no atheism at all. That’s malcontent, and it’s probably more prevalent among Christians than those who truly hold to the idea that there is no God. True atheists don’t really care about morality.
 
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