• Welcome to White Horse Forums. We ask that you would please take a moment to introduce yourself in the New Members section. Tell us a bit about yourself and dive in!

An older universe view

E

EarlyActs

Guest
The objective here is to combine observations about 2 Peter 3 and Genesis 1 that would support a universe that is older than our solar system.

Here are a few of the blocks that make this a worthy question.
1, 2 Peter 3 uses contrasting verbs about the heavens and our earth. 'asan ekpalai' is a settled status from long ago. 'asan' is simply the plural past tense of 'to be.' That's about the heavens. But the earth is 'sunestosa' or formed from and through water, once again validating the opening of Genesis that moves from a dark watery chaos to a completed thriving human-supporting earth. Peter immediately references the power of the word/speaking of God three times:
1st, creation of the earth was through the speaking (contrast that the universe was simply 'there'--existing.)
2nd, God's command destroyed that world (the Cataclysm)
3rd, God's fiat will end it with fire in our future.

2, it seems that if you track Genesis 1 about light, you will arrive nearly at the same astronomical conclusion. There is light on the first day, but it is not our solar system. Our solar system is 'spoken' into existence on the later day 3.
*we nearly have a statement about visual resolution here as well. The light of day 1 is general, but on day 3, with the canopy there, there is enough visibility to make out stars. In Hebrew, our systems planets and larger distant stars (as we now call them) were together called stars. Ie, there is not a distinction at this time. This is an inconclusive detail, but it does give us a description where 'if you were there in person, this is what you would have seen.'

3, when Viking flew by Jupiter for radiometry, NASA was mad at Velikovsky for predicting it would be 'warm.' It was. Suppressing this is a huge feature of modern gradualist science. It was supposed to be 'cold' (radiometrically). Thus the book VELIKOVSKY RECONSIDERED is an attempt to restore some of his insights to the recognition they deserved; he was a pal of Einstein. Velikovsky believed this because of other astronomical data, but also because he was familiar with Genesis and related ancient cosmology accounts, some of which depicted 'colliding worlds'--a Velikovsky title.

We should try to go back to the opening setting of Genesis, the dark, watery chaos. The chaos part means that something that was structured and full, was no longer. We thus have an orb, a space object, with no light, yet enough atmosphere that there is a wind over the dark waters, "the deep." We should then say our solar system was added, but that the earth was there, and that it is merely one part of the distant 'heavens' or universe. The mention of this kind of object may be illuminated by a completely different feature or dimension: the same text of Peter, and its cousin document Jude, refer to a blackness darkness location as a prison of rebellious entities.

6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. --Jude

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; --2 Peter 2

As you can see, besides the matching physical features, there is the custody, or holding, of these entities. Peter (but not Jude) uses the term 'tartarosas' for this place, which is in Greek mythology where 'titans' were confined.

These angel revolts are apart from human time and location, but are mentioned as parallels to historic events on earth in Peter and Jude's argument about the coming judgement day. It is possible to put 2 and 2 together here, but it is not necessary either direction, as far as I can tell. It sets up the question: did God 'reform' one of these locations for mankind, called earth?
 
That is: it might be an older universe 'out there' but not for the usual gradualistic reasons at all. It might explain why there are vast times and distances.
 
I don’t know how old the universe is my brother, and I don’t mind if people believe in aliens or dinosaurs.

Remembering younger days it seems I was very fond at look at dinosaur books, and pictures of space. The massive sizes and differences of atmosphere and chemicals was very intriguing for the stars and planets.

Still is fascinating, wonder what my reaction would be looking through a telescope and see Neptune, or Jupiter… it would probably blow my mind!
 
For thousands of years it has been taught that the creation days are epochs of time.
 
Hello Early Acts,

Will you explain to me a condensed view of your topic? And will you share with me your own thoughts about the universe? What do you believe when it comes to it?
 
I don’t know how old the universe is my brother, and I don’t mind if people believe in aliens or dinosaurs.

Remembering younger days it seems I was very fond at look at dinosaur books, and pictures of space. The massive sizes and differences of atmosphere and chemicals was very intriguing for the stars and planets.

Still is fascinating, wonder what my reaction would be looking through a telescope and see Neptune, or Jupiter… it would probably blow my mind!

Well we have no control over the age, but there really wouldn't be aliens that weren't one of the entities listed by the NT, and dinosaurs are no mystery at all in general (there may be particulars that are inexplicable). When you have such massive samples as "Dinosaur Island" in the Rockies states (an area covering 5-6 states) or the millions of mastodons in Siberia, obviously something major hyrdrological happened, bulldozing and piling them on top each other in one swoop (mass freezing in place in Siberia).
 
For thousands of years it has been taught that the creation days are epochs of time.


Not in Judaic circles, because they kept the Sabbath weekly. Ex. 20. They did have larger units of time in two important historic cases: the 70 years that the land needed to rest (sabbath, one year for each year missing from the previous 490 years) before return from exile, and the 70 sevens (ie 'weeks') of Daniel 9 until the destruction of the nation. So the very culture you are referring to already had larger units in mind, and epochs of time was never substituted. Obviously, as you can see, if you are true about thousands of years (4? 6?) you are talking about something way before torah, which quoted Genesis in Exodus in the normal sense (you could do certain things until sundown, and then not til the next sundown).

A week is also a key unit in celestial mechanics, here on earth. If you are trying to make it about a gradualistic process, then it's a wild card. If you read what angels are capable of (Ps 103: angels effect His word), so that we have Ps 36 saying "he spoke, and it was," then we are in a very different realms from gradualism. This is why Lewis said that the mathematician has a major problem about cosmology: he can only calculate amounts based on rates for you "provided that nothing else happened." "Science and Religion" in GOD IN THE DOCK.

The question here was location. There is radiometric and textual evidence that this solar system is recent, even that it was more recent than earth, in ways that do not apply to the rest of the universe.
 
Hello Early Acts,

Will you explain to me a condensed view of your topic? And will you share with me your own thoughts about the universe? What do you believe when it comes to it?

Oooof, I will try:

Genesis, 2 Peter 3 and radiometry can show that this solar system is younger than the rest of the universe. This is because God created this system as the neighborhood of earth recently and quickly, recently re-formed from a destroyed status. These things are not this way from gradual natural processes though, but because God has been doing things, and there were rebellious angels to confine.
 
I had plastic dinosaurs as a kid 2-3 inches tall.
Their names were printed on their tails. Raised letters on their tales.
Allosaurus - Plesiosaurus - Dimetridon

There were no Veloceraptors til the Jurassic movies came out
 
Not in Judaic circles, because they kept the Sabbath weekly. Ex. 20. They did have larger units of time in two important historic cases: the 70 years that the land needed to rest (sabbath, one year for each year missing from the previous 490 years) before return from exile, and the 70 sevens (ie 'weeks') of Daniel 9 until the destruction of the nation. So the very culture you are referring to already had larger units in mind, and epochs of time was never substituted. Obviously, as you can see, if you are true about thousands of years (4? 6?) you are talking about something way before torah, which quoted Genesis in Exodus in the normal sense (you could do certain things until sundown, and then not til the next sundown).

A week is also a key unit in celestial mechanics, here on earth. If you are trying to make it about a gradualistic process, then it's a wild card. If you read what angels are capable of (Ps 103: angels effect His word), so that we have Ps 36 saying "he spoke, and it was," then we are in a very different realms from gradualism. This is why Lewis said that the mathematician has a major problem about cosmology: he can only calculate amounts based on rates for you "provided that nothing else happened." "Science and Religion" in GOD IN THE DOCK.

The question here was location. There is radiometric and textual evidence that this solar system is recent, even that it was more recent than earth, in ways that do not apply to the rest of the universe.
Your reply is odd and not correct. I will leave you to your thread. Bye!
 
Your reply is odd and not correct. I will leave you to your thread. Bye!

Isn't the object of biblical theology to declare what the text says? The amount of time that the earth was a dark, water, chaotic mass is unspecified. What is specified is that creation takes place as quickly as speaking; "he spoke and it was". (That would be in reference to the surface because the mass was already there.)
 
The objective here is to combine observations about 2 Peter 3 and Genesis 1 that would support a universe that is older than our solar system.

Here are a few of the blocks that make this a worthy question.
1, 2 Peter 3 uses contrasting verbs about the heavens and our earth. 'asan ekpalai' is a settled status from long ago. 'asan' is simply the plural past tense of 'to be.' That's about the heavens. But the earth is 'sunestosa' or formed from and through water, once again validating the opening of Genesis that moves from a dark watery chaos to a completed thriving human-supporting earth. Peter immediately references the power of the word/speaking of God three times:
1st, creation of the earth was through the speaking (contrast that the universe was simply 'there'--existing.)
2nd, God's command destroyed that world (the Cataclysm)
3rd, God's fiat will end it with fire in our future.

2, it seems that if you track Genesis 1 about light, you will arrive nearly at the same astronomical conclusion. There is light on the first day, but it is not our solar system. Our solar system is 'spoken' into existence on the later day 3.
*we nearly have a statement about visual resolution here as well. The light of day 1 is general, but on day 3, with the canopy there, there is enough visibility to make out stars. In Hebrew, our systems planets and larger distant stars (as we now call them) were together called stars. Ie, there is not a distinction at this time. This is an inconclusive detail, but it does give us a description where 'if you were there in person, this is what you would have seen.'

3, when Viking flew by Jupiter for radiometry, NASA was mad at Velikovsky for predicting it would be 'warm.' It was. Suppressing this is a huge feature of modern gradualist science. It was supposed to be 'cold' (radiometrically). Thus the book VELIKOVSKY RECONSIDERED is an attempt to restore some of his insights to the recognition they deserved; he was a pal of Einstein. Velikovsky believed this because of other astronomical data, but also because he was familiar with Genesis and related ancient cosmology accounts, some of which depicted 'colliding worlds'--a Velikovsky title.

We should try to go back to the opening setting of Genesis, the dark, watery chaos. The chaos part means that something that was structured and full, was no longer. We thus have an orb, a space object, with no light, yet enough atmosphere that there is a wind over the dark waters, "the deep." We should then say our solar system was added, but that the earth was there, and that it is merely one part of the distant 'heavens' or universe. The mention of this kind of object may be illuminated by a completely different feature or dimension: the same text of Peter, and its cousin document Jude, refer to a blackness darkness location as a prison of rebellious entities.

6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. --Jude

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; --2 Peter 2

As you can see, besides the matching physical features, there is the custody, or holding, of these entities. Peter (but not Jude) uses the term 'tartarosas' for this place, which is in Greek mythology where 'titans' were confined.

These angel revolts are apart from human time and location, but are mentioned as parallels to historic events on earth in Peter and Jude's argument about the coming judgement day. It is possible to put 2 and 2 together here, but it is not necessary either direction, as far as I can tell. It sets up the question: did God 'reform' one of these locations for mankind, called earth?

I can't edit this, but I did not develop how 2 Peter 2 and Jude use 'haides' as the location for confining those rebellious entities. In most usages about hades, a person dreads 'going down to hades' (the Psalms), in the ordinary sense of 'to the cities under the earth (ie it's surface).' The righteous person hopes they don't have to go there. It is used pretty much as these NT passages say: a holding location for the wicked, so that when the world is consumed into an ongoing fire, all those being held are transferred there. This is a further support for the status of earth (described above) for an unspecified time before creation (which is in reference to the habitable surface as is 2 Peter 3).
 
Back
Top