Your the one who's claimed the devil's God as your own.... not me.
Your the one who's claimed the devil's God as your own.... not me.
Not sure where your coming from today. Is your God and Father different from Jesus' God and Father?
Not at all. But Jesus is clear that the God of those Pharisees, was the God of their Father, who Jesus (not me) identifies as the devil. So was Jesus talking about his Father? No-- he was talking about the one that those Pharisees called Yahweh.
Mattathias
Well-known member
Jesus’ God and Father is Yahweh.
If anyone’s “God and Father” isn’t Yahweh then it isn’t the same God and Father.
So you say. I disagree. Jesus never says that his Father is Yahweh. God is his Father-- and Jesus never calls Him by any name.
These are facts. You should embrace them.
There is only one source-- one reference, declared by Moses alone- which instructs everyone to call his God-- Yahweh. The reference of course, is Exodus 3 and it's telling. Moses tells us directly himself that it was an angel he saw, speaking to him from the burning bush. Clearly, it's this angel speaking to him, that Moses begins calling LORD. He's already decided this, in the telling/writing of the account.
Read the whole account for yourself and realize that it's nothing more than a claim that this angel is making-- that he is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob-- 'your fathers' as the angel says to Moses. It's this very encounter that Jesus takes exception to, saying to the Pharisees-- 'IF Abraham was your father....." -and further declaring that their father was the devil and that Yahweh was the God (elohim/angel/messenger) of that father-- the devil's own.
Now Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from within a bush. He looked, and the bush was ablaze with fire, but it was not being consumed! So Moses thought, “I will turn aside to see this amazing sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” When the LORD saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him from within the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” God said, “Do not approach any closer! Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” He added, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
The LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt. I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a land that is both good and spacious, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the region of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. And now indeed the cry of the Israelites has come to me, and I have also seen how severely the Egyptians oppress them. So now go, and I will send you to Pharaoh to bring my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.”
Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, or that I should bring the Israelites out of Egypt?” He replied, “Surely I will be with you, and this will be the sign to you that I have sent you: When you bring the people out of Egypt, you and they will serve God at this mountain.”
Moses said to God, “If I go to the Israelites and tell them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’—what should I say to them?”
God said to Moses, “I AM that I AM.” And he said, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The LORD—the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.’
It should all remind you of something from Ezekiel--- with the clear association made to a fallen angel.
“‘Your heart is proud and you said, “I am a god;
I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas”—
yet you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are godlike.
Look, you are wiser than Daniel;
no secret is hidden from you.
By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself;
you have amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.
By your great skill in trade you have increased your wealth,
and your heart is proud because of your wealth.
“‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Because you think you are godlike,
I am about to bring foreigners against you, the most terrifying of nations.
They will draw their swords against the grandeur made by your wisdom,
and they will defile your splendor.
They will bring you down to the Pit, and you will die violently in the heart of the seas.
Will you still say, “I am a god,” before the one who kills you—
though you are a man and not a god—
when you are in the power of those who wound you?
You will die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners;
for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
“‘Your heart is proud and you said, “I am a god;
I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas”—
yet you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are godlike.
Look, you are wiser than Daniel;
no secret is hidden from you.
By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself;
you have amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.
By your great skill in trade you have increased your wealth,
and your heart is proud because of your wealth.
“‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Because you think you are godlike,
I am about to bring foreigners against you, the most terrifying of nations.
They will draw their swords against the grandeur made by your wisdom,
and they will defile your splendor.
They will bring you down to the Pit, and you will die violently in the heart of the seas.
Will you still say, “I am a god,” before the one who kills you—
though you are a man and not a god—
when you are in the power of those who wound you?
You will die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners;
for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
Waiting on Him
Active member
The Apostle John also gives some clarity
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
— John 1:17-18
He’s saying there was no Grace or truth in the Old Testament law, and no one had ever seen the God of Jesus.
Prior to Jesus manifesting Him.