Where does the spirit go upon a physical death?

O'Darby III said:

Ecclesiastes happens to be one of my very favorite books precisely because it is delightfully, pessimistically "real." It is in the Bible at all only because some scribe added a postscript to make it at least slightly "religious." I actually do believe that humans and animals have the same spirit - I believe cockroaches are on the same continuum of Life as humans. As with the survival of consciousness, I base my beliefs on experience rather than Bible interpretation. I have had a number of afterlife-related experiences with animals (alas, no cockroaches) - one of which was included in Kim Sheridan's successful book Animals and the Afterlife. Given the choice between experience - mine and that of millions of others - or dubious Bible verses, I go with experience. But to each his own. The future hope that Resurrection offers is not, I believe, an awakening from oblivion but a transformation; at some point, the consciousness that I believe survives death may be transformed into something unimaginably glorious.

Click to expand...

Scripture does say that the breath of life was in the animals as well as humans. Gen 1:30

As for the rest-- that sounds a little Buddhist and closer in line with their concept of reincarnation.... Samsara-- where a person is reborn into another life, and what they are reborn as depends on their actions in their previous life, or karma.

Slightly off-topic, but this was just published: The Light Eaters: How the Unseen World of Plant Intelligence Offers a New Understanding of Life on Earth, https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0063073854/theanomalist.

The author is no whacked-out dummy:

In a nutshell:

I have a VERY strong - indeed, compelling - intutive sense that Christian notions of humans as ontologically distinct from all other forms of Life are badly flawed and lead to some extremely unfortunate consequences. Humans may be at the far end of the spectrum of life - in God's image, if you like - but weeds and cockroaches are on that spectrum, not some ontologically different one.

Mr E said:

And yet we have that story told of "Lazurus" who did just that. Came back from another realm.

Would Jesus tell a false story? Was he some kind of deceiver?

Click to expand...

Lazarus “came back from another realm”?
Where does it say that?
Jesus said he was sleeping. And Jesus told Martha, “Your brother will live again.” Because Lazarus wasn’t alive anywhere else, before Jesus resurrected Lazarus.

That is why the Resurrection promise is so special.

Mr. E, you don’t need to be sarcastic. Please.

O'Darby III said:

I have a VERY strong - indeed, compelling - intutive sense that Christian notions of humans as ontologically distinct from all other forms of Life are badly flawed and lead to some extremely unfortunate consequences.

Click to expand...

Why?

I see just the opposite…. Equating humans with animals, in the sense that we are not the superior life form, I think belittles humans psychologically which can lead to humans lowering their standards and acting like animals…
“Act however you want, have sex with whomever; after all, we’re only animals.”

IMO, that’s flawed.

Best wishes

Mr E said:

Scripture does say that the breath of life was in the animals as well as humans. Gen 1:30

Click to expand...

I didn’t know whether to respond to O’ Darby concerning animals and man or …I decided to respond to animals and humans having the breath of life.

Consider though, to me it’s significant. That Jesus Christ became a life giving, life quickening Spirit. To me there is the difference in while yes animals and man both have the breath of life … to them God gave power to become Sons of God. If I look realistically at the breath of life in animals …I’ve never met an animal my husband doesn’t have to stop me from trying to adopt so I’m not hating on animals or “pets”…but there is a huge difference in not seeing animals able to become a Life-giving Spirit or Life-quickening Spirit. Yes they bear little ones. But what is giving of Life, what is made a Life quickening Spirit?

I don’t see this in animals. Although they are cute and comforting companions to their owners…I have yet to see animals able to be Life quickening. If they were the same …then all those animals slaughtered would have been enough.
It makes me think of: if all those slaughtered lambs and goats could give Life, their blood able to atone for the sins of the world …then there would have been no need for John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

Could even go a step further in consideration of His saying …eat of my flesh and drink of my blood. Way different from eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of animals.

The_H_C said:

Lazarus “came back from another realm”?
Where does it say that?
Jesus said he was sleeping. And Jesus told Martha, “Your brother will live again.” Because Lazarus wasn’t alive anywhere else, before Jesus resurrected Lazarus.

That is why the Resurrection promise is so special.

Mr. E, you don’t need to be sarcastic. Please.

Click to expand...

There was no sarcasm included. Yes, Jesus said he was sleeping. In the spiritual sense, that's the significance of physical death. It's like going to sleep--- and then, you wake up, and get up again. As @Waiting on Him pointed out to you already, Lazarus wasn't just sleeping. He was dead, as Jesus said plainly in John 11:14 --He'd been dead for three days and his body was already decomposing.

And then there is the story that Jesus told about a man named Lazarus, who died and came to life again. And it's Jesus who tells the story and it's Jesus who establishes the context as this man being in another place he called Hades-- where Lazarus speaks and interacts with another man who has similarly died. Either such a place exists, or Jesus is some kind of deceiver, abandoning his habit of speaking truth in this one instance to make up a single story with no basis in reality. I'm going to side with him remaining a truthteller.

The idea that the man was simply sleeping is mistaken. Another example is found in Luke 7:11 where Jesus raised a dead man from the town of Nain.

And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak.

There are other stories. You don't think any of them had stories to tell? I suspect that you couldn't get any of them to shut up and stop telling what they experienced.

Victoryinjesus said:

I didn’t know whether to respond to O’ Darby concerning animals and man or …I decided to respond to animals and humans having the breath of life.

Consider though, to me it’s significant. That Jesus Christ became a life giving, life quickening Spirit. To me there is the difference in while yes animals and man both have the breath of life … to them God gave power to become Sons of God. If I look realistically at the breath of life in animals …I’ve never met an animal my husband doesn’t have to stop me from trying to adopt so I’m not hating on animals or “pets”…but there is a huge difference in not seeing animals able to become a Life-giving Spirit or Life-quickening Spirit. Yes they bear little ones. But what is giving of Life, what is made a Life quickening Spirit?

I don’t see this in animals. Although they are cute and comforting companions to their owners…I have yet to see animals able to be Life quickening. If they were the same …then all those animals slaughtered would have been enough.
It makes me think of: if all those slaughtered lambs and goats could give Life, their blood able to atone for the sins of the world …then there would have been no need for John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

Click to expand...

Welcome! So glad to see you here.

Very good-- Gen 1:30 is a reference to every animal that is alive--- that has living breath in them. No, that doesn't make them the same as humans, that were made in the image of God, uniquely. Scripture says that the life is in the blood with respect to the flesh, and the blood is spilled as an atonement... in other words, you pay a penalty with your life-- what I call 'a life sentence that is served, one life at a time.

You mention that Jesus has the power/authority/ability to lay down his life and pick it up again. It's not figurative. In 1 Cor 15:12 Paul says>>

Now if Christ is being preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

And in explaining, Paul points right back to Genesis 1 as well. The natural man, who had the spiritual man breathed into him. I don't see a difference between us and animals in this sense-- both having the breath of life (living breath) and the blood of life, given them by the Giver of Life. Different in form, different in function, but from a single source- given life. But that's me. I see Life in rocks and trees. In rivers that run to the ocean. All of it exists because of Him, for His good pleasure and for His purposes.

Mr E said:

There was no sarcasm included. Yes, Jesus said he was sleeping. In the spiritual sense, that's the significance of physical death. It's like going to sleep--- and then, you wake up, and get up again. As @Waiting on Him pointed out to you already, Lazarus wasn't just sleeping. He was dead, as Jesus said plainly in John 11:14 --He'd been dead for three days and his body was already decomposing.

Click to expand...

Not to be annoying but for the first time this makes me think of Saul/Paul. That may sound crazy but if we consider the power of God when a body is already decomposing (perishing) …Saul to me could be said to be “already stinking” in how Paul told Christ they have already heard how I persecuted those believers dragging them in to be imprisoned and tried before the judges. If we consider 2 Corinthians 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: [16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Saul sleeping….right before “wake up you who sleep, and Christ will give you Light” ….I can see one might could say of Saul …But God this man already STINKS. Where Christ declares His mercy and grace through one who was already decomposing and stinking. Saul, Saul you already stinketh!

Victoryinjesus said:

Not to be annoying but for the first time this makes me think of Saul/Paul. That may sound crazy but if we consider the power of God when a body is already decomposing (perishing) …Saul to me could be said to be “already stinking” in how Paul told Christ they have already heard how I persecuted those believers dragging them in to be improved and tried before the judges. If we consider 2 Corinthians 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: [16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Saul sleeping….right before “wake up you who sleep, and Christ will give you Light” ….I can see one might could say of Saul …But God this man already STINKS. Where Christ declares His mercy and grace through one who was already decomposing and stinking. Saul, Saul you already stinketh!

Click to expand...

While we were still stinkin' sinners-- Christ died for us.

Mr E said:

While we were still stinkin' sinners-- Christ died for us.

Click to expand...

Makes me think of a theology I’ve heard concerning Paul was dragging around a corpse. I can’t remember it. But only that I was told some time before …in church or someone said…he carried around something decomposing and was chained to it?

Mr E said:

Welcome! So glad to see you here.

Very good-- Gen 1:30 is a reference to every animal that is alive--- that has living breath in them. No, that doesn't make them the same as humans, that were made in the image of God, uniquely. Scripture says that the life is in the blood with respect to the flesh, and the blood is spilled as an atonement... in other words, you pay a penalty with your life-- what I call 'a life sentence that is served, one life at a time.

You mention that Jesus has the power/authority/ability to lay down his life and pick it up again. It's not figurative. In 1 Cor 15:12 Paul says>>

Now if Christ is being preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

And in explaining, Paul points right back to Genesis 1 as well. The natural man, who had the spiritual man breathed into him. I don't see a difference between us and animals in this sense-- both having the breath of life (living breath) and the blood of life, given them by the Giver of Life. Different in form, different in function, but from a single source- given life. But that's me. I see Life in rocks and trees. In rivers that run to the ocean. All of it exists because of Him, for His good pleasure and for His purposes.

Click to expand...

Agree I can see the breath of life in rivers too. And in trees.
But there is still a significant difference (Imo) in the rivers I soak my toes in on a warm day and “the River of Life” where Christ says if any drink of this Water, this drink He gives out of this Water proceeding, this River flowing out from God …he will never thirst again. To me the river waters I soak my toes in do not possess the same power to give Life as The River of Life Jesus Christ spoke of.

Same with trees. In going to bible study’s and people discussing the fruit of trees whether in paradise those trees will bear oranges or apples or what fruit will those trees bear to feed a man’s belly? Huge difference between apple trees and orange trees and “the tree of Life” where its fruit is the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Peace, love, mercy, grace, long-suffering, patience, brotherly kindness…

In this there’s a pattern? John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Victoryinjesus said:

Agree I can see the breath of life in rivers too. And in trees.
But there is still a significant difference (Imo) in the rivers I soak my toes in on a warm day and “the River of Life” where Christ says if any drink of this Water, this drink He gives out of this Water proceeding, this River flowing out from God …he will never thirst again. To me the river waters I soak my toes in do not possess the same power to give Life as The River of Life Jesus Christ spoke of.

Same with trees. In going to bible study’s and people discussing the fruit of trees whether in paradise those trees will bear oranges or apples or what fruit will those trees bear to feed a man’s belly? Huge difference between apple trees and orange trees and “the tree of Life” where its fruit is the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Peace, love, mercy, grace, long-suffering, patience, brotherly kindness…

In this there’s a pattern? John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Click to expand...

Exactly. -and exactly the point. The things below are not the same as the things above. Flesh is not the same as spirit. While we can see the goodness and life of a river, tree, animal, or person-- these are images. The reality is a spiritual reality where each of these things is more, much more than their appearance. We recognize this reality in ourselves-- that there is more to us all than what meets the eye. Should we ignore the same reality in these other things that are also reflections of our Father?